Attention NEWBIES: MUST READ... regarding lift heights....

[Krash80]

I'm starting to notice a large influx of newbies inquiring about lifting their jeeps around five to six inches. I'm wondering why you all desire this lift height and what you plan on accomplishing by doing so (ie. what size tires you want to run, specs on your lift/drivetrain, type of wheeling you plan to do).

The reason I ask is because, in my opinion, a 5-6" lift on a grand with short arms (adjustable or stock) and stock axles/driveshafts is a very poor setup.

Do you want to lift your ZJ 5-6" to fit a specific tire size? Do you realize the consequences on the drivetrain as a result of running that tire size? I'm guessing that most people who want to lift their grands this much are planning on running 33-35" tires, and that lift height/tire size is a wonderful combination that will likely not require excessive fender/bumper trimming and/or rediculously extended bumpstops. HOWEVER... to SAFELY and RELIABLY wheel on 33-35" tires, the axles will need to be regeared (especially if you have a 4.0L w/ 3.55:1 gears), or better yet, completely replaced with stronger axles capable of handling the loads that these bigger tires impose upon them. I swapped out my stock axles because I kept breaking them every time I went wheeling with my 33" tires...and even when my rig wasn't being wheeled, I was going through hubs and balljoints like crazy. I have ~4500$ in axle parts from doing my axle swap, and it would've cost a lot more had I not done all the work myself and made every single little bracket from scratch.

Control arm angles are another thing to consider. Anything above about 4" of lift makes for noticeably steep control arm angles. These steep angles suck because they do not allow the suspension to work properly. As the control arm angles get steeper, their bushings start to become the absorbers of vertical movement of the axle, which is supposed to be absorbed/dampened by the shock absorbers. Also, everytime a bump in the road is hit, the front axle not only travels up as usual, but it's also now forced to travel forward following the arc of the control arms pivoting at the frame...the more severe the CA angles, the more forward movement the front axle is forced to make when a bump is hit. This is not really a factor for the rear axle, as it is forced backwards when it goes up...which is much easier for it to do as the vehicle is traveling forward. Taking note of this should make it easy to understand why steep CA angles result in poor ride quality.

Another thing to think about with a 5-6" lift is poor steering geometry. The inverted "Y" design of the stock ZJ steering works very well at stock ride height since the tie-rod and drag link are relatively close to parallel. As the vehicle is lifted, the tie-rod and drag link become more perpendicular. Due to the geometry of the inverted "Y" steering, the toe of the tires will change significantly when a bump is hit if the two links are not close to parallel. If you can't visualize why this happens, make a quick model of your stock steering with a couple pencils and notice how the ends of the links where the steering knuckles would be move together and apart as the "ride height" changes via the mock pitman arm. The rapidly changing toe angles of the front tires after hitting a bump is a primary source of the dreaded deathwobble.

Have you thought about driveshafts? Odds are good that with 5-6" of lift and stock axles, you will have a very difficult time adjusting the caster of the front axle correctly without introducing terrible vibrations from the front driveshaft. With a double-cardan style front driveshaft, the axle pinion should be pointed directly at the transfercase...if it is not, the driveshaft will likely vibrate like a bitch...which will not only annoy the crap out of you, but it will also quickly wear out your driveshaft U-joints, pinion bearings, and transfercase output bearings (these vibrations may also result in female passengers reaching orgasm while riding in your jeep, but we all know the female orgasm is only an urban legend anyway). So since the front axle needs to be close to its stock orientation to maintain decent caster, the pinion will not be able to point at the t-case like it needs to.
The rear driveshaft is not as much of an issue as the front axle if adjustable lower rear control arms are used. Adjustable/longer control arms will allow you to rotate the rear axle back to a "level" (stock) position, and will result in proper d/s angles so that vibrations should be minimal.


There are several other things I could go into detail on, but they're not quite as significant as the issues stated above.
But basically what I'm trying to make a lot of you realize is something I've stated several times before: you can lift a grand to about 4" very easily, safely, and inexpensively...but lifting it the next couple inches is a huge step that opens a huge can of worms that will likely cost you a small fortune.

So if you are a newbie to wheeling grands and are curious about lifting it, I'd strongly recommend you keep it at 4" or less lift and 32" or smaller tires unless you are very dedicated to working on it and wish to spend obscene amounts of money on it to make it drive and wheel properly. Keep It Simple Stupid!

If ya'll don't understand some part of this or need further clarification on anything, or disagree with anything I've written, speak up and I'll gladly address your concerns.

-Ron-

[bburgi]

Woot! Well said, well said.

[JHKolb]

That is a great analysis!

[Krash80]

Forgot to add:
If you want to lift your jeep to 6" just so it looks cool and impresses the chicks at the local high school, and you have no real intention of driving it offroad, then you are on the WRONG website! Mallcrawlin was created by hardcore grand wheelers for hardcore grand wheelers, and there is a lot of effort put forth to keep this site that way, so please don't waste our time asking questions about lifting your jeep if you are not planning on using it for moderate wheeling. I'd suggest checking out Jeepsunlimited.com, as it is more accepting of poser vehicles and web wheelers.

[OverkillZJ]

Ron's my hero.

[JeepinHank]

[Jim311]

So can I run 31s with this 2 inch body lift?



You can run 33s on 4.5" of lift.. that's what I run. A combination of a buttload of fender chopping and decent bumpstopping will work. I'm going to stay at this lift height until I'm ready to go longarm.. hopefully soon.

[OverkillZJ]

So can I run 31s with this 2 inch body lift?

BANNED!

[BigDaveZJ]

NEW SIG!!!

[KeepItCrunk]

I think Krash80 hit the nail right on the head in his second post. I went through highscool with a yj on 33's and 3.5 fabtech leafs. Went everywhere i wanted it to, prety reliable. Thing rocked. I never really was down with that whole "10238472354 inches of lift, 230847203 inch tires and stock everything else" thing. lol, in the parkin lot at ym school, ther was a yj on 35's, stock EVERYTHING with a SOA. This big beat to shit dodge on some no name mudder. Gumbo monster mudder i think? and 340k or so last time i saw him lol. gotto love the highschool days..

[doyll]

Krash's got it right.

Also, going from stock to 31-32" tires and a 3.5" lift IS A 5" LIFT!! Stock tire is 28, so 1 1/2-2" of lift right there plus 3.5" is at least 5" total. 3.5" spring lift usually doesn't requires minimum changes, so is cheap to do. It looks good, goes good off road, and is still safe on the street.

Just my .02's worth!

[4wheeln ZJ]

Well

[death-mobile]

not being a newbie...I won't take offense. hahaha

[dasVettemeister]

if you are not planning on using it for moderate wheeling...... I'd suggest checking out Jeepsunlimited.com, as it is more accepting of poser vehicles and web wheelers.

What about NAGCA?

[zj-monster]

What about NAGCA?

That's a website for those who steal ideas from others and claim it as thier own original idea.

[CurtP]

What about NAGCA?

And JF...

[hotrodtinker]

But guys... I want to run 10" of lift with 49" mudders on my 22s (bling bling)... But I still want it to ride like factory... What's wrong with that? Do I need some more stickers on it or something? Oh wait... that's what ricers do. Nevermind.

PS (I know... I know... This is a dead thread... I'll check the dates before I reply next time. I swear.)

[ThinkX2]

Great post.

At 3 posts I'm obviously a noob to this group. I've been lingering around behind the scenes making attempts to take away as much worthwhile information as I can.

I bought my ZJ 2 years ago as a DD. Since then I've been researching the snot out of what works, what doesn't, what I feel I need & what would obviously be overkill. I've noticed a large number of ZJ's showing up around here lately, most of which sporting useless amounts of lift. I have nothing against running 6+ inches of lift if it's a necessity but after stopping owners to chat about what they had done & finding out that a good portion of these guys still had 249's, D35's & D30's underneath I've started to wonder wtf these people are thinking, or better yet, why aren't they?

Anyway, I plan to start my build in a few months ... nothing major, just enough to get out there & have some fun. It's a 95 w/a 5.2 which will stay in place until it hatches. I'll refrain from asking for suggestions unless anyone feels the need to. As for now I plan on running a short arm RE lift after yanking out that shit-box 249 in favor of a 231, what axles I'll use is still up for debate ... if I need to swap them out at all. Whatever the case, lockers will be involved as well as some upgrading if the stock units stay in place.

Great site & I look forward to getting more involved as my build progresses. Sorry it's not a radical build but I'm being realistic. What happens after the bug sets in for good ... only time will tell. For now I'll keep my relationship with the Mrs & my checkbook in tact.

[frumpy]

Just a quick question on this. I am looking into buying a ZJ that has a 6" lift on short arms. I know its not the best but its going to have to do for at least a few months. I was thinking of going to 4" coil but would the length of the control arms throw everything out of wack? Its either use 4" coils or tough it out for a bit until I can get some long arms in. They are not adjustable arms, they were built by a shop for a 6" lift. The jeep has 35s on it right now but I have some 33" LTBs sitting around on bead locks that I plan to use for now (axles are the 30 up front and 44a out back both are open and have 4.56 gearing). Not new to jeeps but have always had wranglers and tried to keep them as low as possible with as much fender trimming as possible.

[OverkillZJ]

Control arms that work at 6" would most likely work at 4" - but why don't you see how 6" on short arms feels first. I did it for awhile until going long arms, but it may have knocked a few screws loose in my head.

[frumpy]

I might just do that, cheaper and the ZJ won't be daily driven. Speaking of which, I should have it in about 20 minutes

[cherokeepeople]

Hello noob here I second the motion if I new it would be this much hassle for 7.5 inch lift I would'nt have done it. So heed what this guy has to say he knows what he's talkin about. I have spent more that I wanted to. (but I really like my jeep and it's be fun doing the work I have done to it)..

[bucko]

some one need's to post a pic of some bent control arms to show them that they wont be picking up chicks because they will be to bizy replaceing bushings and tierods etc lol

im new to jeeps but not to wheeling!!!

[dp96zj]

some one need's to post a pic of some bent control arms to show them that they wont be picking up chicks because they will be to bizy replaceing bushings and tierods etc lol

im new to jeeps but not to wheeling!!!

Thanks for the pointless thread revival. Check into the "I'm new to MC" thread instead of bringing crap up from the dead for no apparent reason.

[chevy11person]

very well said. i love how you threw in some jokes in there also