Project Hugs Version 4.0

[Gearjammer]

Well crap. Not having decent brakes really sucks, I went through it with a CJ7 I used to have.

[Yjsaabman717]

Well crap. Not having decent brakes really sucks, I went through it with a CJ7 I used to have.

Yup, it does. I miss driving it, but they are simply not safe. I've just kinda been letting it sit because of the frustration and being tired of throwing parts at.

On an amusing side note, my wife got in to move it yesterday and almost ran it into the utility trailer. She turned the key without pushing the clutch pedal forgetting it's now a manual.

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[Yjsaabman717]

Tried bleeding the brakes again today with a pressure bleeder. Prop valve is still gutted, stopping power is still garbage. Going to try another master cylinder next, not sure where else to go with it.

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[Gearjammer]

I really hope the new master cylinder fixes it for you. On the CJ7 I had the apply piston in the power booster was adjustable, having it set wrong led to either brakes that would drag, or a very low weak pedal. I don't know if a stock power booster would have that adjustment, or if adjusting it would help, but it might be worth checking while you have the master cylinder off.

[Yjsaabman717]

Thanks for the insight, I'll have to take a look at that.

I was looking at master cylinders again and the one I purchased last time has had the description changed to read power brakes as opposed to 4 wheel disc. It also lists both ports as being the same size and I'm 99% sure they were different sizes, like the one that came off. Both masters Advance lists have a 1" bore, so no difference there. What a headache this has been.

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[Yjsaabman717]

Did some more work on the brakes yeaterday. Started at the master cylinder and worked through the whole system. Plugged the ports on the master cylinder, solid pedal. Reinstalled the seal in the proportioning valve and connected the rear circuit, pedal is still solid. Next I disconnected the RF circuit from the tee and blocked it, pedal was still solid. Added the RF circuit and the pedal was mush. Ok, narrowed things down. Just to be sure I blocked the LF circuit, still mushy. For a final test I disconnected the hose from the RF caliper and blocked it off, solid pedal. Off to Advance to exchange the caliper I bought in February. Installed another caliper, bled the front circuit out on both sides, test drive, and....still mush. WTF?!?! Time to walk away again and gather my thoughts.

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[Ken L]

Question. Have you had someone watch the flexible hose to the RF caliper? I wonder if it has bad reinforcement in it and it's swelling (expanding) as you step on the brake. Just a wild guess, as you've eliminated everything else in the circuit. I'm assuming that when you disconnected the hose from the caliper, that you blocked off at the hard line and not at the banjo fitting.

Hope this helps.

[Yjsaabman717]

Hoses are all new braided stainless. The pedal also pumps up fine with the hose connected to the brake system, but the caliper removed and the caliper end of the hose blocked shut, so the hose does not seem to be a problem.

I'm starting to think I may need to try a caliper from a different vendor? Not sure what else to do at this point.

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[Yjsaabman717]

So I started this past round of wrenching with a few tests. Removed RF caliper, removed pads, inserted wood blocks, and then checked the pedal feel. Still garbage, so it's not in the pads, either. Went back to my hose test, started on the RF, again, disconnected the hose from the caliper, blocked it, had a solid pedal. Next I reconnected the RF and performed the same test on the LF with the same result. So regardless of the side, removing one caliper gives me a solid pedal. Just for S's and G's I disconnected the rear brake circuit from the master and plugged the port. No change with both front calipers connected and bled.

At this point I think my next move is to bypass the proportioning, just to see what happens. Everything else has been tested and replaced. This still makes no sense, but I will figure it out.

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[Yjsaabman717]

N o time to wrench, but a fair amount of thinking. Have some plans for the next round, and I grabbed another XJ brake pedal from the 'yard when I was there Thursday. May take another measurement or two before I attempt anything. I wonder if where the pedalnpivot mounts is maybe further back on the XJ pedal cluster, since I had to add a spacer to contact the brake light switch. My thoughts are that this change may be causing the pedal to stroke the MC differently causing poor braking. Doesn't explain the soft pedal, but if I can get more MC stroke, I can get more braking output. Still trying tk relate thisbissue back to thenpedal change.

I also grabbed a pass front door harness since mine has some broken pins where the main harness plugs into it. With all the Mini parts I grabbed for the wife's car the Jeep parts were essentially free.

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[Yjsaabman717]

Prop valve bypass lines are bent up, just need time to salvage fittings then install said fittings and flare the lines. As much as this whole situation still boggles my mind, I've also been researching master cylinder upgrades. May have to take some time and go play in the junkyard to confirm fitment before buying new.

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[Yjsaabman717]

I did get the prop valve bypass done and the system bled out last weekend. Ran out of time for a test drive, but initial pedal feel does not have me hopeful. Bear with me while I walk through things and maybe someone will have some more insight to help me figure this out.

I keep coming back to the whole situation and the only thing I've changed is the pedal. The ratio is the same, though, so it shouldn't have had any effect the operation. This has been beyond frustrating.

The pedal gets soft once both front calipers are introduced to the system. It doesn't matter which one you eliminate. Removing one caliper results in nice, firm pedal. That leads me to believe (though it makes absolutely no sense as nothing changed in the hydraulic system) that it's volume related. And as for the bleeding process leavinb air in the system, I have been using a pressure bleeder, so it should be pushing all the air out. So, back to a volume issue, if that's the case, then perhaps a larger bore master cylinder will help? Did some research, want to be sure on it, so I think some test fitting in the junkyard on the next trip, and start with a used Durango/Dakota master cylunder before investing in a new one.

I also do have anothe brake pedal I can mess with. Try adjusting the angle to get a bit more travel? There doesn't seem to be play in pushrod, though, and it doesn't ever go to the floor.

Sorry for the rant, like I said I'm just frustrated as all hell with this thing. Yes, it's been a while since I've driven it, but I know the brakes were better than this. I'd done a panic stop or two and wasn't worried. Current situation I'm not comfortable with and I don't think I would have driven like this as long as I did.

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[Gearjammer]

I think your onto something with the master cylinder volume. I actually checked on RockAuto the other day to see if some ZJ's had different master cylinder bore's, hoping I could find something that might be helpful for you, but all the ones they sell are the same size. My brakes could be better, so when you find a master cylinder with a bigger bore that works, I may have to try one out on my jeep.

[Yjsaabman717]

Hit the junkyard this morning and did some research. Started with an 02 Durango with a 4.7 and pulled out the brake M/C, then checked it against the M/C from a 93 ZJ also in the yard. This was not going to work! Early ZJ on the left, Durango on the right.

Sorry, I stopped taking pics after that and just wanted to figure out a plan. Next a pulled a 99 Durango M/C which was smaller overall, but was about the same depth into the booster. I started looking at other options, like the plethora of WJs that were there. That looked about the same as the 99 Durango. Next I looked at a later ZJ, and then another, and then another. The 93 ZJ setup matched my 94, but the 95, 97, and 98 ZJs I looked at all matched, but looked more like the WJ and 99 Durango. The later ZJ (and the Durango) also have an adjustable pushrod on the M/C side on the booster. The later M/C is also aluminum vs steel, and the booster doesn't have the electrical gizmo the early ZJ has. In the end I pulled a decent looking master and booster from a later ZJ to try out. I also pulled the vacuum hose with the booster, just to make sure. The later boosters take their vacuum from a different location on the manifold, but both early and late have the correct size fitting somewhere on the intake manifold. I'll post some more comparison pics when I'm putting it all together.

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[Yjsaabman717]

Well, no booster/master swap today as I thought of something else to check. While the pedal ratio from pivot to master is the same, is the pivot location on the pedal bracket? The answer is no! The XJ pedal is a good 1/2" further away from the firewall. Well, now, that could certainly have an impact on how things work! At this point I'm stuck without a 1/2" drill bit at home to go through the middle part of the bracket. I got through the outer sections with a stepped bit.

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[Yjsaabman717]

Got all 3 holes drilled and decided to add a little material back in the old holes, just for good measure on strength. I also had to weld the clutch MC reinforcement to the pedal cluster as the pivot bolt now interfered with it. Got it all back in yesterday and have some interesting results. The brakes are still not where I think they should be, so I may still swap the other booster/master combo in. However, the clutch feels markedly better than ot did before. It used to engage/disengage very close to the floor and at times would seem to be barely released. Now it engages about mid-travel and I have no issues shifting.

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[dubj]

I too was having issues with pedal travel, I recently just mounted the master cyl to the firewall with all thread and jam nuts. .Not pretty, but being able to quickly adjust pedal throw is awesome. finally got my clutch where i want it. only took a few years and pedals and masters...

good luck!

[Yjsaabman717]

Thanks! I'm definitely happy with the clutch, now, so it's just down to sorting the brakes. The clutch pedal is also much higher off the floor, now, and even higher than the brake pedal. It does not bottom out on the floor before the travel ends. The later booster/master combo opens the door to more compatible masters with a larger bore and has an adjustable pushrod in the booster. I'm just baffled by all the issues I'm having after researching this a bunch before diving in. I saw no mention of changing the pivot point or crappy brakes after the swap anywhere.

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[Gearjammer]

Glad to see that your making some progress on getting the brakes sorted out.

[Yjsaabman717]

Time is the main enemy. I just picked up a bigger engine for my BMW, though, so I have more motivation to get this sorted so I can drive this while I swap the BMW from 2.5L/5 spd to 3.0L/6 spd.

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[Yjsaabman717]

Well, the brakes aren't as good as I think they could be, but they are definitely the best they've been since the manual swap. I probably put about 10 miles on it today, including some highway driving, and feel comfortable driving it, now. I did find a minor leak at the LF caliper that was fixed with some fresh crush washers, and I ended up swapping in the later ZJ master and booster and bleeding the whole system. The pedal is still a bit squishy/has more travel than I feel it should, but it does stop in a reasonable fashion.

Having driven it a little more with the 5 speed, it could definitely use the 3.73 gear axles I have for it. It cruises alright, but struggles a bit on grades at highway speeds in 5th. Overall it feels good, though, and I'm stoked to get the little things ironed out and get the other axles in. Thinking they may help the brakes a bit as the front brake pad sliders are mint on those vs the wear on the original knuckles. First is sorting out why the headlights aren't working now!

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[Yjsaabman717]

Put almost 40 miles on it today. I think driving it has helped by cleaning off the rotors some. It's been sitting for over a year since the auto trans crapped out, it's good to have it back on the road. Kinda reminds me of the brake feel on a GM truck, they always feel spongy and crappy sitting still, but work fine once you get out on the road. Had to lube the clutch pedal, it was super squeaky. I'll do the pads and rotors when I swap the axles.

Oh, and the headlights just started working. Checked some fuses, then hit the high beams, and next thing I knew the low beams were working, too.

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[Yjsaabman717]

It's got over 100 miles on it with the manual trans and decent braking, now. Overall I like 5 speed, though the throws are massive. I had a B&M shifter in my YJ, which was amazing. 5th gear in this thing is in the next county, it seems. It cruises nice, about 2100 rpm @ 75 mph, but you need to downshift for almost any type of hill with the 3.55 gears and 32" tires. Some gears seem a little stiff, so I think I need to double check the fluid level in the trans. I filled it through the shifter opening, and I don't remember having the side fill plug open to see if it was enough or not. Overall I'm happy with the swap, but definitely ran into some issues I did not see mentioned anywhere in my research.

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[Ken L]

I'm glad you got it worked out. It's weird how stuff just pops up randomly on projects like this. Glad you persevered and figured things out.

[Yjsaabman717]

So I noticed the other day when I was looking things over one of the engine mounts is torn. Cheap Anchor crap, these are only about 3 years old. So, any good solutions for daily driving? There isn't much out there for these things through the normal channels.

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