Thread: how much cage/reinforcement is really needed?

Results 1 to 22 of 22
  1. #1 how much cage/reinforcement is really needed? 
    Senior Member Lifetime Supporter
    Grand Slam West Planner
    Admin
    BigDaveZJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Centennial, CO
    Posts
    10,676
    Rep Power
    221
    As I get ready to build the new ZJ, strengthening the unibody is one of my major areas of focus, and one of the major reasons I need to build another one. I've gotten 15 years out of my current unibody, and given what I've done to it on and off the trail, I'd actually say I'm satisfied with it. There are a couple issues I'd like to prevent on the new rig though. I'd like to avoid lambo doors, prevent the unibody cracking around the d-pillar/unibody rail/rear x-member junction, and just in general make it more secure. But I don't want to make it a heavy pig either. One other spot I'm having issues, is the unibody is actually crumpling up against my rear Clayton's mounts, kinda weird, and not sure what actually caused it.

    Current plans are to put new Clayton's brackets on, and boatsides tied in to the unibody stiffeners on Clayton's kit. I had also planned on putting a cage in/on that would resemble what Ryan did on Trucks! back in the day. I can't do a full interior cage, simply not enough room. But I wanted a roof halo outside, a-pillars outside. A hoop/x on the b pillar that goes through the roof and ties to the roof halo. With the seats as far back as I put them, I don't think I'll need much on the c-pillar, and then the d-pillar could go either outside or inside, I think inside would look better, outside would be easier.

    How much of that is actually needed though? I know nobody (except maybe Chad) rolls their rig on purpose, but in 15 years of wheeling I haven't even come close. And I'm not building this rig to do trails harder than I've been doing, I'm building it to do the trails I'm already doing more comfortably and reliably.

    I have no problem with building the cage, but if I can save the time and money needed to do it that wouldn't be a bad thing.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2. #2 Re: how much cage/reinforcement is really needed? 
    The class retard Lifetime Supporter ajmorell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Santa Fe, NM
    Posts
    1,525
    Rep Power
    96
    Not exactly an answer to your question, but are you planning to reinforce the unibody beyond the Clayton's stiffeners? IIRC, the Clayton's setup doesn't run the full length of the unibody. I would think the more rigidity you can add to the unibody the better, in particular I would think that torsional rigidity would really help to keep the doors & liftgate from getting all jacked up.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  3. #3 Re: how much cage/reinforcement is really needed? 
    Senior Member Lifetime Supporter
    Grand Slam West Planner
    Admin
    BigDaveZJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Centennial, CO
    Posts
    10,676
    Rep Power
    221
    I'll probably plate some of the rails, or I could use the same style that Clayton does along the bottom of the rails. I remember Kraqa modeled that a while back and found it stronger than fully sleeving.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #4 Re: how much cage/reinforcement is really needed? 
    Senior Member Ken L's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Arvada, CO
    Posts
    906
    Rep Power
    94
    Dave, when I built my long arms I had pieces bent to sleeve the unibody rails from the front bend to the back bend, pretty much from the stock LCA mounts on both ends. I did that to spread the stresses of the control arms over a much larger area in hopes of eliminating any tearing of control arm mounts from the unibody. It also made a great place to weld the rear uppers to. I'm running radius arms in the front. When the sleeves were bent, the guy that did it for me also CNC cut holes along all 3 sides so we could plug weld it to the unibody. Also re-did the skid plate mounting. If you want to take a look I could bring it by sometime if it's a route you want to take.
    Ken L
    '96 ZJ with stuff
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #5 Re: how much cage/reinforcement is really needed? 
    Senior Member Lifetime Supporter
    Grand Slam West Planner
    Admin
    BigDaveZJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Centennial, CO
    Posts
    10,676
    Rep Power
    221
    Ken, Clayton's uses a similar system, but doesn't go quite as far as yours. But it does connect the front and rear LCA mounts for the long arms. Most of my unibody issues have been outside of that area though.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #6 Re: how much cage/reinforcement is really needed? 
    Senior Member Ken L's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Arvada, CO
    Posts
    906
    Rep Power
    94
    Your issues have been outside of the Clayton's brackets or outside of the flat/straight part of the Unibody My sleeves are wheel well to wheel well in length.
    Ken L
    '96 ZJ with stuff
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #7 Re: how much cage/reinforcement is really needed? 
    Senior Member Lifetime Supporter
    Grand Slam West Planner
    Admin
    BigDaveZJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Centennial, CO
    Posts
    10,676
    Rep Power
    221
    Both. The rear goes almost to the wheel well, but the other issues, where its actually cracked, are covered up by the rear bumper.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #8 Re: how much cage/reinforcement is really needed? 
    Senior Member Ken L's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Arvada, CO
    Posts
    906
    Rep Power
    94
    Ah, ok I get it now. Are you thinking of plating the back and tying the two sides together to eliminate the potential for twisting? A hitch or bumper would do a nice job for that. Or do you think the rear cracks could have been a by-product of having the top chopped for a couple of years? Maybe attaching the halo via the d-pillar to the Unibody will solve some of that too. But then you're starting to add more weight.
    Ken L
    '96 ZJ with stuff
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #9 Re: how much cage/reinforcement is really needed? 
    Senior Member Lifetime Supporter
    Grand Slam West Planner
    Admin
    BigDaveZJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Centennial, CO
    Posts
    10,676
    Rep Power
    221
    Ron/Krash80 has the same unibody cracks, so I don't think that's just from the roof hack.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #10 Re: how much cage/reinforcement is really needed? 
    The class retard Lifetime Supporter ajmorell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Santa Fe, NM
    Posts
    1,525
    Rep Power
    96
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaveZJ View Post
    I'll probably plate some of the rails, or I could use the same style that Clayton does along the bottom of the rails. I remember Kraqa modeled that a while back and found it stronger than fully sleeving.


    I could see in bending as you're essentially adding a stiffening rib, but in torsion I think fully boxing/sleeving would be stronger and IMO that's what ZJs really lack is torsional rigidity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken L View Post
    Ah, ok I get it now. Are you thinking of plating the back and tying the two sides together to eliminate the potential for twisting? A hitch or bumper would do a nice job for that.
    Agree on tying the unibody together somehow in the rear. I don't think a hitch by itself would be enough, but maybe if you sleeved the unibody, had a stiff rear bumper and/or tied them together with cage work it would be stiff enough to resist twisting.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #11 Re: how much cage/reinforcement is really needed? 
    Senior Member Lifetime Supporter
    Grand Slam West Planner
    Admin
    BigDaveZJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Centennial, CO
    Posts
    10,676
    Rep Power
    221
    IIRC it was actually torsional rigidity that Kraqa modeled.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #12 Re: how much cage/reinforcement is really needed? 
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Buckeye AZ
    Posts
    13
    Rep Power
    0
    Here's a link to our ZJ frame stiffener kit on ebay (the pics on our website dbmetalworx.com needs resized). It's made of 10 ga steel, and goes full length front to rear. The center section fully encapsulates most of the frame rail. Plating the uniframe then doing a 2x4 or 2x6 inch rocker replacement, then tying the rocker to stiffeners, makes a very sturdy foundation to mount a cage.
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jeep-Grand-C...e=STRK:MESE:IT
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #13 Re: how much cage/reinforcement is really needed? 
    Senior Member Grand Slam West Planner
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Fruita, CO
    Posts
    814
    Rep Power
    75
    Quote Originally Posted by DBMETALWORX View Post
    Here's a link to our ZJ frame stiffener kit on ebay (the pics on our website dbmetalworx.com needs resized). It's made of 10 ga steel, and goes full length front to rear. The center section fully encapsulates most of the frame rail. Plating the uniframe then doing a 2x4 or 2x6 inch rocker replacement, then tying the rocker to stiffeners, makes a very sturdy foundation to mount a cage.
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jeep-Grand-C...e=STRK:MESE:IT
    This may be the route I need to go with mine, mostly for lack of time but also for lack of facilities and equipment.
    Looks like a decent setup!
    "ZJ's were designed with the intention to take 1 really good hit, and fold up. As long as the occupants walked away, it was a success. In the wheeling world, we expect our vehicles to take multiple really good hits, drive out of it, and run the obstacle again!"
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #14 Re: how much cage/reinforcement is really needed? 
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Buckeye AZ
    Posts
    13
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth Crawler ZJ View Post
    This may be the route I need to go with mine, mostly for lack of time but also for lack of facilities and equipment.
    Looks like a decent setup!
    We have them in stock and ready to ship..
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #15 Re: how much cage/reinforcement is really needed? 
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Southern Missouri
    Posts
    4
    Rep Power
    0
    Subscribing. Headed this direction on mine this winter.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #16 Re: how much cage/reinforcement is really needed? 
    Senior Member Lifetime Supporter
    Grand Slam West Planner
    Admin
    BigDaveZJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Centennial, CO
    Posts
    10,676
    Rep Power
    221
    Quote Originally Posted by Clrussell View Post
    Subscribing. Headed this direction on mine this winter.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Turns out I won't be doing this on a new platform, rather I'll be repairing what I can on the old ZJ's unibody, but should still be some good stuff.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #17 Re: how much cage/reinforcement is really needed? 
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Southern Missouri
    Posts
    4
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaveZJ View Post
    Turns out I won't be doing this on a new platform, rather I'll be repairing what I can on the old ZJ's unibody, but should still be some good stuff.
    Be sure and post pics. I'm a newb here and still trying to find my way around the board.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #18 Re: how much cage/reinforcement is really needed? 
    Senior Member Grand Slam West Planner JohnBoulderCO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,813
    Rep Power
    116
    I have started my cage build. It turns out both B-Pillars and both C-Pillars are twisted and there are cracks in the metal. I'm planning on doing more to keep the pillars in place and functional doors.
    WJ, 4.7, Clayton's Front, Double Triangulated Rear, 231HD, HP44, 8.8, ARBs, TR Bumpers, Hydro Assist, 35's, Cage
    Lambo Doors - tweaked unibody
    http://www.mallcrawlin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8532
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #19 Re: how much cage/reinforcement is really needed? 
    Senior Member Lifetime Supporter ZJ TINS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Cedar Rapids Ia
    Posts
    1,337
    Rep Power
    88
    With a hitch, factory gas tank armor, and rear steel bumper (using the bumper bolts) the rear end is incredibly solid. I can jack or jump on the corner of the bumper and there seems to be no discernible twist. The load paths are going through the steel not the uni-body. Now with a 3/16" closed triangular tube (4" x 7" x 8") as the rocker replacement, jacking the vehicle causes no discernible distortion. This leaves the front. Nothing ties the rocker rails into the frame, or across. Boxing the rockers is definitely a easy low cost alternative, alone with a box for a rear bumper.
    “I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials.”- George Mason
    "The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." -Thomas Jefferson
    “The great object is that every man be armed.” -Patrick Henry
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #20 Re: how much cage/reinforcement is really needed? 
    Pinch Yo Sack Pimp MallCrawlin Vendor
    Staff
    Kraqa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Langley, BC
    Posts
    4,264
    Rep Power
    140
    Cut out rockers with frame tie insurance help the pillar twisting alot. Might want to consider that instead of bolt on sliders.
    EPIC POLYMER RACING
    Toyo Tires Offroad Race Team | EMF Rod Ends | Big Country Customs | Mulitia Muffler | VancouverWaterjet.com | Epic Polymer
    EPIC POLYMER RACING ULTRA 4 Buggy Build WJ Grand Cherokee
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #21 Re: how much cage/reinforcement is really needed? 
    Senior Member Grand Slam West Planner JohnBoulderCO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,813
    Rep Power
    116
    Quote Originally Posted by Kraqa View Post
    Cut out rockers with frame tie insurance help the pillar twisting alot. Might want to consider that instead of bolt on sliders.
    Agreed that will help out a lot and I did that first, before staring my cage, but the pillars kept twisting.
    WJ, 4.7, Clayton's Front, Double Triangulated Rear, 231HD, HP44, 8.8, ARBs, TR Bumpers, Hydro Assist, 35's, Cage
    Lambo Doors - tweaked unibody
    http://www.mallcrawlin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8532
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #22 Re: how much cage/reinforcement is really needed? 
    Pinch Yo Sack Pimp MallCrawlin Vendor
    Staff
    Kraqa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Langley, BC
    Posts
    4,264
    Rep Power
    140
    My next project on the ZJ is a cage. i'm OCD and dont want to see the cage.
    EPIC POLYMER RACING
    Toyo Tires Offroad Race Team | EMF Rod Ends | Big Country Customs | Mulitia Muffler | VancouverWaterjet.com | Epic Polymer
    EPIC POLYMER RACING ULTRA 4 Buggy Build WJ Grand Cherokee
    Reply With Quote  
     

Thread Information
Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •