Thread: TOTM: Tow Rigs, Gas vs. Diesel

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  1. #1 TOTM: Tow Rigs, Gas vs. Diesel 
    ....... Lifetime Supporter rstrucks's Avatar
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    A lot of us have one, the rest of us want one. With gas and diesel fuel prices like they are (and probably not going to get better anytime soon) it makes picking a tow rig that much more of a challange. Many pros and cons to each and it often comes down to $$$$$.

    Present your case!
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  2. #2 Re: TOTM: April '11 - Tow Rigs, Gas vs. Diesel 
    Senior Member ATL ZJ's Avatar
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    If fuel prices continue to rise I see fewer, longer trips happening. And I might also need to pick up a separate DD that gets better mileage than my tow rig, and just keep the tow rig for towing...

    The only arguments I see for diesel are towing at high elevations and towing multiple rigs or really heavy loads. For towing a single rig, a 1/2- 3/4ton gasser will do. For towing more than one rig, IMO you need a diesel. And with the direction fuel prices are going, it may make more sense to throw two rigs on a trailer and split fuel. There are great arguments for both depending on what you want to tow, how often, and how far.
     

  3. #3  
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    Most of the towing I do would take significantly longer in a gasser. Between here and Moab there are several big passes. I start out about 6k ft in elevation, climb to 10k, drop to mid 7's, then back over 10k, all within 90 minutes of my house.

    If I lived out east, I wouldn't have a diesel. Living in CO though and using it as a tow rig, its almost a necessity. My minimum load right now is about 9k lbs, and usually I'll be over 10k, so a Gasser just wont cut it for that.
     

  4. #4 Re: TOTM: April '11 - Tow Rigs, Gas vs. Diesel 
    Senior Member MallCrawlin Supporter
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    I would pretty much restate what Cam said. Of the group of guys I travel with most I'm the only one with a diesel. The gasers always do just fine. The guy I've traveled the most with has towed out west to Moab twice and Oklahoma once with me. And lots of other shorter trips. But his properly set up 1/2 ton gaser does great, even through CO. And by properly set up I mean with a weight distribution hitch with sway control. I've seen him tow with and without it and it makes a huge difference. Something else to consider on a gaser is being sure to get the tow package if it makes a difference in gearing and coolers on your truck.
    I bought my diesel right before fuel prices really started to go up. I think I had it for a couple months and then everything changed for good. Also to consider with a diesel is regular maintenance cost more. More expensive oil, more filters to change more often, and a bigger price tag if it has to get worked on. That all being said I wouldn't trade my Dodge for anything. My truck is great. My only regret is I should have got a 1 ton single rear wheel. That little bit of extra rating helps when comes to trying to keep legal when towing two rigs. Also the extra helper spring for the load.
    If, I were to get a gas tow truck next, it would still be at least a ¾ ton truck. The suspension is so much better suited and really what makes the difference if your only regularly towing one vehicle. It would also be a Chevy. I couldn’t see getting anything else in a gaser. You never know what the future will hold but one day they may actually start making a diesel for fuel economy and torque and put them into trucks. That would be a great option. For example, my dad’s diesel WK. That little V6 kicks ass. He and I have both towed his 20’ boat. Of course I get better millage than him but if you consider my truck weighs 7000lbs the mileage he gets is pretty damn good for the size of WK and that V6.
    Last edited by Pearce; 04-04-2011 at 10:29 AM.
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  5. #5 Re: TOTM: April '11 - Tow Rigs, Gas vs. Diesel 
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    I'll tell you this....having my diesel saves me just under $100 EACH TRIP to/from Moab.

    Round trip to Moab is 450 miles for me. I had a Chevy K2500 w/ the 5.7L and although it could handle the load just fine (aside from the 40mph max on steep hills) I would average 8 MPG for the trip towing the 7000# load (Jeep 5400#, trailer 1600#). With the Duramax I am able to average 15 MPG and actually go the speed limit up the climbs. The load is also about 1000# heavier now with the new trailer and Jeep upgrades. Doing the math with gas being about 20 cents cheaper per gallon than diesel it's about $90 more each trip to Moab for a gas truck. That alone is enough for me to justify the diesel.
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  6. #6 Re: TOTM: April '11 - Tow Rigs, Gas vs. Diesel 
    My avatar isn't animated Lifetime Supporter SirFuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATL ZJ View Post
    The only arguments I see for diesel are towing at high elevations and towing multiple rigs or really heavy loads. For towing a single rig, a 1/2- 3/4ton gasser will do. For towing more than one rig, IMO you need a diesel. And with the direction fuel prices are going, it may make more sense to throw two rigs on a trailer and split fuel. There are great arguments for both depending on what you want to tow, how often, and how far.
    I would agree with that. I have a 2007 Ram 1500 with the 5.7L Hemi and it does just fine here on the east coast. There was one mountain en route the Harlan that really pissed me off, but nothing even came close to overheating. In retrospect, I wasn't pissed because it was a gasser -- I was pissed because I had no choice but to go slow because of all the switchbacks I needed to brake for.

    There is a good mix of tow rigs in my local wheeling group and they all seem to get the job done. Save for hitting a hill in the wrong gear, I can usually keep pace with the diesels unless they are driving like maniacs. I just tend to piss them off because a gasser can't really hold its speed up a hill like a diesel can, so we always seem to be jockeying for position since our rigs deal with hills differently. My Ram seemed to have a bit easier time through the hills than my buddy in his similarly-equipped F150 -- but his gearing is 3.55 and mine is 3.92, so that could have been the difference.

    When I got my truck, I was told to go for a 3/4 ton because of wear and tear issues. After 63k, I haven't run into any issues. The brakes on the newer 1/2 tons seem to actually be better than the older 3/4 tons. Plus trucks seem to have gotten bigger that even the 1/2 tons of today seem more well equipped to tow than their older 3/4 counterparts.

    My major complaint (and this is apparently pretty common for F150s, Silverados and Sierras, too) is that my front rotors warp very easily. It seems that I'm getting about 20k on rotors before they warp. I'm going to check the rest of my braking system when the weather gets nicer to make sure that something else isn't causing the warped rotors.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATL ZJ View Post
    If fuel prices continue to rise I see fewer, longer trips happening. And I might also need to pick up a separate DD that gets better mileage than my tow rig, and just keep the tow rig for towing...
    If there was any semblance of truth to my April Fool's joke, it was that I'm thinking of possibly trading in my truck. It's been great, but since I'm taking the year off from wheeling, I don't really need it. Plus, Sarah is wanting to get an AWD compact SUV and my truck would get a lot more money than her car in trade-in or private sale. I'd then drive around her gas miser and be on the lookout for an early-2000s diesel. I am compiling actual MPG data from my truck and her car so I can do a cost comparison of both options.

    The issue is that I have a lifetime drivetrain warranty on my truck -- so any major work would be covered under warranty. If I didn't have any warranty left on it, I'd probably just do it.
    Last edited by SirFuego; 04-04-2011 at 10:55 AM.
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  7. #7 Re: TOTM: April '11 - Tow Rigs, Gas vs. Diesel 
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    Well I just fought the battle between a gasser and a diesel tow rig. Like everyone has said, it came down to $$$$$. My budget was around 5k, so any diesel in that range had well over 200k miles and most were close to 300k. For the money I went gasser, but not just any gasser, Dodge V10 gasser. I compared diesel numbers to Dodge V10 numbers in the mid to late 90s and surprisingly they were pretty close. In 1996 the 12v Cummins in stock form made 215 hp and 450 lb-ft torque while the V10 made 300 hp and 450 lb-ft torque. I found a V10 with just over 100k for $5k and I have been extremely happy with it. Now this thing is of course a gas guzzler, about 7.5 mpg towing and 9-10mpg unloaded. For as little as I drive it (only towing and hauling), there was not a need to spend the extra money on a diesel, or compromise with a much higher mileage truck. I know diesel engines will go 300k miles plus, but I always worry about the other "non-engine" components with 300k miles on them.

    Before I bought the Dodge, I towed my jeep and trailer with my 99 Chevy Tahoe with a 5.7 liter 350 in it, that sucked. On some of the climbs I was down to 15 to 20 mph, with my foot on the floor. The 1/2 ton suspension under my Tahoe also shook like crazy and at some points I was thinking "wholly crap, this thing might break in two" haha. I was also worried about the rear 10 bolt axle going "kaboom" at some point with the stress. For these reasons, for a dedicated tow rig, I say why not step up to a 3/4 ton, again if you can afford it.

    Short story is, if your budget allows for a diesel, get one, if not, then there are gassers that will serve your purpose.
    Last edited by BigClay; 04-04-2011 at 10:54 AM.
     

  8. #8 Re: TOTM: April '11 - Tow Rigs, Gas vs. Diesel 
    My avatar isn't animated Lifetime Supporter SirFuego's Avatar
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    One thing I will say about towing with a 1/2 ton (though this is probably applicable for any bumper-pull application)...

    Get your tongue weight dialed in. If you are constantly using the same trailer/rig combo (as most of us are), mark up the trailer once you get it dialed in. My truck handles like crap when the tongue weight is off (the trailer keeps pushing me around or I'm bouncing after ever bump in the road), but when the tongue weight is dialed in, it's almost like the trailer isn't there (at least from a handling/braking perspective).
    Last edited by SirFuego; 04-04-2011 at 11:05 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by SB406
    I think that's your signature move.
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  9. #9 Re: TOTM: April '11 - Tow Rigs, Gas vs. Diesel 
    Senior Member ATL ZJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlerReady View Post
    I'll tell you this....having my diesel saves me just under $100 EACH TRIP to/from Moab.
    Let's be clear. $100 savings in fuel only... How much of that savings is eaten up by the higher cost of ownership remains to be seen. If you've already factored that in, post up your spreadsheet.
     

  10. #10 Re: TOTM: April '11 - Tow Rigs, Gas vs. Diesel 
    Senior Member ATL ZJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirFuego View Post
    One thing I will say about towing with a 1/2 ton (though this is probably applicable for any bumper-pull application)...

    Get your tongue weight dialed in. If you are constantly using the same trailer/rig combo, mark up the trailer once you get it dialed in. My truck handles like crap when the tongue weight is off (the trailer keeps pushing me around), but when the tongue weight is dialed in, it's almost like the trailer isn't there (at least from a handling/braking perspective).
    x2, and it also helps to throw all your extra stuff on the trailer. My ~300lbs of spare driveshafts, axle shafts, nitrogen setup, etc. all go in the passenger side floorboard of the rig now and it's been much to have the correct tongue weight and get proper handling without the bed being loaded down too much.
     

  11. #11 Re: TOTM: April '11 - Tow Rigs, Gas vs. Diesel 
    My avatar isn't animated Lifetime Supporter SirFuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATL ZJ View Post
    x2, and it also helps to throw all your extra stuff on the trailer. My ~300lbs of spare driveshafts, axle shafts, nitrogen setup, etc. all go in the passenger side floorboard of the rig now and it's been much to have the correct tongue weight and get proper handling without the bed being loaded down too much.
    I usually throw my spare parts in the bed of the truck (at least the ones I don't carry with me on the trail). I only have a 7000lb trailer (which is 1700lb unloaded), so I'm a bit hesitant to throw much else on the trailer in case I ever get pulled over. When the weather breaks, I'm going to figure out the unsprung weight on my ZJ and add on the weight of the axles/tires/wheels to get a ballpark of how close I am to the limit of my trailer. IIRC, my truck can pull about 8500lb, so I'm not concerned about that.
    Quote Originally Posted by SB406
    I think that's your signature move.
    "The Former"- Lay Jeep against obstacle in trail. Mat gas pedal. Form Jeep to the shape of obstacle.
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  12. #12 Re: TOTM: April '11 - Tow Rigs, Gas vs. Diesel 
    Senior Member MallCrawlin Supporter
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    After reading the next few post something came to mine. Those of us who currently posted so far are towing rigs that are pretty different from each other. My buddy with a Titan, (not Cam) gets 10 to 11 mpg towing his TJ which is only on 33’s. I can get 12 to 15 depending on where and how I drive. Yeah it varies that much. I have also towed Cam's rig to Arkansas and I got better millage with his in tow. The rig is lighter and no big YJ windshield. Last trip I had the windshield down on mine and it seemed to make a little difference. I would guess also the point about which the weight of what your towing starts to really impact fuel could be somewhere between 6000 and 7000lbs. And of course on this forum there are a lot of heavy GC’s.
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  13. #13 Re: TOTM: April '11 - Tow Rigs, Gas vs. Diesel 
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATL ZJ View Post
    Let's be clear. $100 savings in fuel only... How much of that savings is eaten up by the higher cost of ownership remains to be seen. If you've already factored that in, post up your spreadsheet.
    In what? Changing the oil every 10k miles instead of 3k? $20 for my gas truck every 3k miles and $55 for my diesel every 10k miles.....saving $$ there too. Honestly, (crossing fingers) the maintenance of this diesel have been less or on par with my gas truck....whether you choose to believe it or not doesn't really matter to me though

    edit: Besides, the fuel savings are not just when I tow. I DD my diesel and I average 17 MPG around the city and 19-20 on the highway. My old gasser, 13 city and 15 highway. The fuel savings to own the diesel make up for any maintenance increase with the diesel. No point for me to not have the diesel.
    Last edited by CrawlerReady; 04-04-2011 at 11:29 AM.
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  14. #14 Re: TOTM: April '11 - Tow Rigs, Gas vs. Diesel 
    Senior Member ATL ZJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlerReady View Post
    In what? Changing the oil every 10k miles instead of 3k? $20 for my gas truck every 3k miles and $55 for my diesel every 10k miles.....saving $$ there too. Honestly, (crossing fingers) the maintenance of this diesel have been less or on par with my gas truck....whether you choose to believe it or not doesn't really matter to me though
    Definitely not oil changes. I run Amsoil and my oil lasts a long time too...

    Don't get blindsided by the replacement costs for hard parts when that time comes. Having owned both a diesel and a gasser I will say that the big stuff that just eventually has to be replaced (starter, fuel pumps, solenoids, etc.) tended to be quite a bit higher on the diesel.

    Just because maintenance isn't needed now doesn't mean it will never be. Even if you sell the truck before it needs anything remotely major, all the miles you're logging are still depreciating its resale value. Might be smart to account for it as it happens.
     

  15. #15 Re: TOTM: April '11 - Tow Rigs, Gas vs. Diesel 
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    This is true, but I puchased my diesel for a price that couldn't be passed up from a family friend. It's still worth more that what I purchased it for. I know the hard parts are $$$, injectors are an issue with these dmax's...so I'm waiting for that. Hell, I had to drop $1k into the transfercase last July....still have no regrets though.

    Honestly if this deal wouldn't have come up for me to get the diesel, I would still be driving my gas truck and I'd probably be arguing the opposite way haha. I loved that thing...
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  16. #16 Re: TOTM: April '11 - Tow Rigs, Gas vs. Diesel 
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    To be totally honest, I dont know why anyone would ever buy a gas truck. Unless initial cash available is the limiting factor. Diesels retain value better, get better mileage loaded and unloaded, can tow more, and last longer.

    At the very least, get a 3/4 ton to tow if only for the brakes. People constantly get caught up in a horsepower discussion but slowing everything down is even more important. Yes, I understand that trailer brakes can mitigate this to an extent, but I believe it still is worth noting.

    I would contend that ownership costs for a diesel are lower as well, depending on what you buy. If you wind up with one of chevy's old disasterdiesels, yes, your parts costs might get astronomical. Anything in the cummins/superduty/duramax category, save for a few chronic issues (6.0 fords HGs, VP44 pumps, etc) are going to be pretty damn reliable trucks, at least equivalent to their gasser counterparts, though I would contend even better.

    Just for the sake of information, my '02 7.3 gets me about 17mpg mixed. 19-20 on the interstate if you keep it below 70, about 25 mpg at a steady 55mph. last time i towed i was grossing 15klbs and got 12.x mpg over 900 miles. In 60,000 miles of ownership (130k-190k) i have replaced a CPS, hpop o-rings, starter twice (once due to loose bolts, my fault), and a power steering line. knock on wood.

    I'll also offer up what information I know about superduties for those shopping:

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    '99s had a different turbine and hpop
    99-00 had 235hp/500lbft
    00-03 had 250/500
    00-03 6spd had 275/520

    Like i said, if i'm going to be driving a pickup for any reason, I would never buy anything but a diesel even if i had it to do over again. If diesel gets back up to $5 a gallon, that tune might change a little though...
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  17. #17 Re: TOTM: April '11 - Tow Rigs, Gas vs. Diesel 
    Senior Member ATL ZJ's Avatar
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    Just how massive are these 3/4 ton brakes you're talking about? The '08 rotors on my Titan measure 13 3/4" and require the use of an 18" wheel. The rear brakes are no joke either. Seems like the newer 1/2 ton equipment is becoming (sometimes surpassing) yesterday's 3/4 ton equipment, especially in the braking department. Now if you're looking to buy an older truck then sure there are probably bigger differences. But for relatively late models, the real differences are probably going to be suspension, rearend, and frame.
     

  18. #18 Re: TOTM: April '11 - Tow Rigs, Gas vs. Diesel 
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    since no one has brought this up. I'm not saying that I do but you can run bio diesel in your diesel which depending on how you make / get it is cheaper then diesel at least here in CA 4.45 a gal for diesel. I would only suggest this if you have some of the older diesel motors like the 12 valve (I think)Cummings or the 7.3L ford motor.

    I don't have any experience with bio diesel, for any numbers mileage wise.
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  19. #19 Re: TOTM: April '11 - Tow Rigs, Gas vs. Diesel 
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    While that is true, you can buy a shitload of diesel fuel for the investment it takes to get into making your own bio so it probably depends on how many miles you put on your rig, not to mention making your own bio does you no good on a long trip since you can't bring it all with you.
     

  20. #20 Re: TOTM: April '11 - Tow Rigs, Gas vs. Diesel 
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    Gasser. Initial cost. I bought my 2000 F250 V10 extended cab Lariat 18 mos. ago for $4400. With a budget of $4500-$5000 any Diesel would have been beat to shit, run to shit or smelled like shit. I have done the math before and won't waste the time to do it again but I can buy a metric shit ton of gasoline for what an equal diesel would have run me (read: min. 13k).
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  21. #21 Re: TOTM: April '11 - Tow Rigs, Gas vs. Diesel 
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajmorell View Post
    While that is true, you can buy a shitload of diesel fuel for the investment it takes to get into making your own bio so it probably depends on how many miles you put on your rig, not to mention making your own bio does you no good on a long trip since you can't bring it all with you.
    true but it will work for the weekend trip. We seem to make it to our camp site and back just fine with 60 gallons.
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  22. #22 Re: TOTM: April '11 - Tow Rigs, Gas vs. Diesel 
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsteves View Post
    Gasser. Initial cost. I bought my 2000 F250 V10 extended cab Lariat 18 mos. ago for $4400. With a budget of $4500-$5000 any Diesel would have been beat to shit, run to shit or smelled like shit. I have done the math before and won't waste the time to do it again but I can buy a metric shit ton of gasoline for what an equal diesel would have run me (read: min. 13k).
    True, but you can sell the diesel for far more than you can sell the gas truck in the end. I guess it depends on how long you plan on owning your vehicle for too or if you ever plan on selling it.
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  23. #23 Re: TOTM: April '11 - Tow Rigs, Gas vs. Diesel 
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    what about the fact that you can tweak a deisel for under $500 and nearly double the hp and torque(depending on which one) and add a 3-4 mpg at the same time
     

  24. #24 Re: TOTM: April '11 - Tow Rigs, Gas vs. Diesel 
    My avatar isn't animated Lifetime Supporter SirFuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moparrr07 View Post
    what about the fact that you can tweak a deisel for under $500 and nearly double the hp and torque(depending on which one) and add a 3-4 mpg at the same time
    But can everything else hold up the the new HP and torque? That statement is very similar to buying a lift to run 35s then do no other mods to make it reliable....

    I'm not against modifying vehicles, it's just that when you modify a vehicle you generally decrease the reliability or end up spending even more to keep moving your weak link somewhere else.
    Last edited by SirFuego; 04-04-2011 at 05:28 PM.
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  25. #25 Re: TOTM: April '11 - Tow Rigs, Gas vs. Diesel 
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsteves View Post
    Gasser. Initial cost. I bought my 2000 F250 V10 extended cab Lariat 18 mos. ago for $4400. With a budget of $4500-$5000 any Diesel would have been beat to shit, run to shit or smelled like shit. I have done the math before and won't waste the time to do it again but I can buy a metric shit ton of gasoline for what an equal diesel would have run me (read: min. 13k).
    IIRC, your truck is just a truck too right, you have an Audi or something as a DD? That factors a lot into the budget, or at least it did for us. Hard to spend quality diesel money on something that will sit the majority of the time. Mine was a DD for almost 5 years, which put a lot of wear and tear on the truck, but also helped offset a significant portion of its cost.

    If I was buying a truck all over again that was going to just haul the Jeep and other misc truck duties and NOT be a DD, I don't really know what I would do.
     

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