TOTM: Steering

[rstrucks]

Steering - upgraded stock type, hydraulic assist or full hydro, lets discuss. Be sure to reference what type of steering you are talking about. What works well, what has failed you, when to upgrade, what are some low buck alternatives, rod ends vs. tie rods, etc... Pics help too!

[SirFuego]

The major thing is that anytime you change your steering geometry, you MUST make sure that the drag link and track bar are parellel, or else it will result in bumpsteer.

The reason is as follows: think of the track bar as locating the horizonal position of the axle and the drag link as locating the horizontal position of the tie rod. Since the track bar has mounting points that do not move, the axle moves slightly to the passenger side when you hit a bump (think of the trackbar as a radius of a circle). If the drag link is NOT parallel, the drag link will not move the same horizontal distance, so that creates a force that moves the tie rod and/or pitman arm, which creates the bumpsteer. If the drag link is parallel, it moves the same distance as the track bar, so there is no bumpsteer.

This is the same reason a track bar is needed anytime you use a drag link/steering box for steering. Even if you have enough triangulation in your links to overcome the steering forces, the axle will move straight up and down -- but the draglink can't.

This is also the same reason, you can get away with no trackbar in a full hydro setup, provided that you have enough triangulation in your links to overcome the steering forces. In this case, it doesn't matter how the axle bumps/droops because all of the steering geometry moves with the axle regardless.

I'll post up more info on my steering setup later. I'll also recommend that people post up links to various options for steering (such as braces and heavy duty tie rods) to make this a "one stop shop" for steering options in a ZJ/WJ.

[SB406]

Here's my experience as executed on a leaf sprung front end (K5 Chasssis), but most of it applies to all vehicles. There's a lot of details to iron out in any setup. If you have any questions about any of these setups, let me know.

1st-
Inverted T steering using factory 1 ton parts. Stock P-Pump with "West Texas mods"- Worked fine on 35" boggers on a D60. Upgraded to 38's. Still worked pretty well.
However, if you're going to mod the pump, I'd recommend doing it to a new pump. If you mod a used pump, they seem to crap out fast.
Also, without assist, you put a ton of stress on the steering box and the frame around the steering box. My frame needed to be braced.
Ruinning this setup, you NEED steering stops on the knuckles that engage before the stops inside the box. Otherwise you will break the box or rip it off the frame when the tire is being pushed by a rock. First hand experience here.
Cost- $50 for 2WD steering box (It's a Chevy thing. You wouldn't understand.)

2nd-
Hydro Assist. Tapped my own box. "West Texas mods" P-pump. 2x8 single ended. tractor ram. Same inverted T components as above with brackets added for the ram. Added a cooler also. Awesome setup. One of the best things I ever did to my truck.
Took a ton of stress off the steering box. Made my truck so you didn't have to roll the tires to steer. This allows you to put the truck on the line you want alot easier.
The ram was limited internally to 6.25", so it wouldn't try to rip the knuckles off.
The biggest challenge was fitting the ram under the front of my truck. I have very little lift (~4" over stock) and leaf springs in the way.
The only downfall with this setup is the speed. The 2" ram was a bit large and made the steering just a tick too slow. In the rocks it kicked ass, but on WOT hill climbs, I'd sometimes ping pong off trees. The stock box could just not flow enough to steer that big ram fast, no matter what I did to the pump.
Advantage is that if something fails, you can still easilly drive out of the woods.
Cost to upgrade- $150


3rd (in Progress)
Full hydro. Same 2x8 Single ended tractor ram as above, mounted in same position. Removed the drag link and steering box. Added a 5.9 Cu in orbital. Stock pump with no mods (so far). Initial tests seem excellent. Steering is very fast and responsive.
Initial test drive confirmed that the pump could not perform at low RPM. This was a case of poor parts store quality. The pump was on for 1 run and was feeling sluggish by the end of the weekend. Changed pump, and it seems much better in the shop. Next test drive will be 4WD in a couple of days. I may need to bump up the relief pressure a touch.
Will report back with results.
Cost to upgrade- $225

[ATL ZJ]

A few things I've learned:

-Get the stress off the stock ZJ framerails with hydro assist and/or distribute it better with bracing and a real 4 bolt box
-Proper caster is not talked about enough. Ackerman and alignment are important too
-More fluid volume in an assist or full hydro setup puts a lot more demand on the pump
-Finding a way to keep high steer arm studs tight is critical
-Rear suspension and locker selection can affect steering control while climbing almost as much as the steering itself
-Hose routing to prevent chafing is important, but field serviceable fittings are amazing if you need to make a new line on the trail
-Good steering is something that is built into the entire plan of the rig itself, rather than an afterthought. I could go on and on about this, but this just means that trusses are built for correct cylinder mounting, rear axle width and wheel backspacing are chosen for ideal ackerman, tie rods are placed for max. uptravel, etc etc.

[BigDaveZJ]

For a relatively lightly modded rig, I've been content with my setup. Its a biatch to turn sometimes, but its been durable and has tolerable handling characteristics.

I have no drop pitman arm or drop trackbar bracket, just the KOR trackbar. I put Currie steering on my rig like 5 years ago and its held up well for me, but steering systems bought more recently don't seem to be as good.

I also upgraded the box to a Waggy 4 bolt with a brace using a MORE clamp that ties into both unibody rails.

Eventually I will go hydro assist, but not on a D30.

For street manners I think I need to play with my caster a bit as I have very little return to center and a slight wander.

One thing I think a lot of people overlook when trying to nail down looseness in a stockish steering setup is the joints in the steering column. That column is designed for stock tires going down the road where it is very easy for the box to move the drag link. Put some big tires on there, air them down, and put some rocks in the way and it can get pretty hard to move everything. To compensate for that most of us put more force on the wheel hoping to move the tires. While everything from the box to the tires may be set up for those bigger loads, the components from the wheel to the box probably are not.

[Ken L]

I'll echo Dave's comments, although all I did was upgrade the stock tie rod to a heavy duty one from somewhere--I don't remember right off hand where though. It is about twice the size of the stock tie rod, and has held up well.

My biggest issue with the stock steering has been burning out the pump, so when I replaced the pump I converted the stock tow package auxilary transmission cooler into the power steering cooler. It seems to help, although turning when in the rocks is still a beyotch sometimes. 33s are about all I want to try to turn with the D30 front, even with a selectable locker in it.

An upgrade to a 4-bolt Waggy box is in my future, as is bracing the box to the passenger's side frame rail.

I am very interested in this subject, thanks for making it TOTM!

[SirFuego]

-Proper caster is not talked about enough. Ackerman and alignment are important too

Care to talk about this a bit more? Reading up on full hydro steering, there are a lot of people that talk about Ackerman angles and a lot of people say that it's worthless on a trail rig. I definitely understand it's benefits in high speed applications and DD applications, but how much does it really matter for a trail rig? I have a basic understanding of Ackerman angle, but it might be good to start with a simple explanation of what it is for those that don't know.

[fredr1980]

Outside of swapping over to "1-ton" steering, hydro assist is the second best mod I've made to the steering system. When I ran the D30 I had the stock style steering draglink with an upgraded tie-rod from the old-school poison spyder customs with their proprietary tie-rod ends... the ends were great (7/8" IIRC) never destroyed one but their tie-rod ended up pretzeling up over time. Went over to 1-ton chevy type steering, stuff was beef and held up so good it outlasted the D30 and now lives on my D44.

Hydro assist was a good upgrade, but I've learned from my first attempt at it on my wifes CJ-7 that bigger hoses mean more flow and a bit quicker steering response... ran 1/4" hose on her first set-up based on what I read online and steering was a bit slow until I upgraded to 3/8" hose. Also I did the budget surplus city 6-inch ram on hers and it seemed to have a bit of a quicker steering response going one direction VS the other (pass vs driver side) even after extensive bleeding of the system. I'm running a PSC 6-inch ram on my set-up and maybe it's just me but I don't notice a different steering response in one direction vs the other. I did the "west texas steering pump mod" on the wife's CJ as the stock pump on those old AMC motors sucked and it pepped up the system quite a bit, but I didn't find it necessary on my rig as with the hydro-assist with it locked up and aired down to like 5 PSI, steering required the same effort as steering a stock vehicle on pavement so I left it alone. I might eventually go with an underdrive pully from PSC though as sometimes when the front's locked and really bound up I need to rev it a bit to get some more flow, but it hasn't bothered me enough to swap it just yet so it stays for now. Running steering coolers on both set-ups now which is a must as you'll overheat the system pretty quick with hydro assist if you run constantly locked... so far I'm pretty content with how both systems have turned out.

Fred R.

[Jeeptech01]

This may seem basic but IIRC the I6 ZJ had an uber weak tie rod that could be upgraded with factory parts to a V8 one for a substantial strength upgrade.

Also excess backlash within the steering gear can develop over time. It is easily repairable. Locate the steering gear lash adjuster (allen headed stud with a 5/8 or 11/16 jam nut) and loosen the jam nut while holding the center stud with an allen wrench. With the vehicle off, have an assistant or mildly capable drunken friend wiggle the steering wheel back and forth to the limits of its freeplay while slowly tightening the center stud until all freeplay is gone. Then tighten jam nut.

*Do the above with care as tightening the lash too much will undoubtedly bring the suck AND ruin the steering gear*

ed: Id really like to see some otk setups and mods done to the axleside tb bracket so I can get some ideas for my HP30 build. Im not real sure how to go about changing the tb bracket.

[SirFuego]

Here is a picture of my HP30 steering setup:


It is an inverted T setup using Chevy 1-ton tie rod ends. You can get the TREs at any auto parts store, but here is a nice kit that has all 4 TREs included:
http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/...41_p_1203.html

One big thing to consider is that each of these TREs require one to ream out each knuckle, the pitman arm, and the ES2027L TRE with a 7 degree reamer. This unfortunately isn't something you can just run to the store to pick up. I think you can get one from Napa, but the quality of it has varied.

I'm admittedly not sure where my axle-side trackbar bracket came from. I thought it was from Ballistic (my friend already had this), but I'm not seeing it on their website. I know that Clayton Offroad includes an adjustable track bar bracket with their front axle brackets. I don't know if they sell it separately, but I don't see why they wouldn't:
http://claytonoffroad.com/product_in...products_id=83

There are two things I do not like about this steering setup:
1) There is a small dead spot due to the tie rod "rolling" over due to the drag link forces. You can get a little spacer from JCROffroad to remedy this, but I've never had that spacer last more than two wheeling trips, so I just started dealing with the dead spot. I have been wanting to use a hole saw on a polyethylene cutting board (yes, that thing you use in the kitchen) and make my own, but never did.

2) I've bent 3 passenger side TREs -- 2 on the draglink and one of the passenger knuckle TRE. I really don't know that there is a way around this other than high steer.

[Jeeptech01]

So it deletes the steering stabilizer but I suppose one could be installed from the tb to dl. The idea for the spacer sounds cool too. I was planning on using wj knuckles for the brakes but with 3-4" lift didnt want to run the full highsteer so the tb bracket wouldnt be so high. So I figured Id just run an otk style setup in the tierod holes and cut off the dl arm from the pass knuckle. Anybody see an issue with that?

Why are you bending the tre's? Are you running them out of travel?

[SirFuego]

So it deletes the steering stabilizer

Yes, but I supposed one could easily be added. I had no bump steer, so I never found a need for it. There was a set of rail road tracks everyone slowed down to about 5-10 mph for where I used to live. The day I drove the Jeep home, I drove over the tracks at about 30-35mph and the thing tracked straight as an arrow.

Why are you bending the tre's? Are you running them out of travel?

It had nothing to do with the travel and everything to do with them getting rammed into rocks.

[rstrucks]

The first steering setup on my ZJ was an OTK tie rod and WJ knuckles with the higher drag link attachment point. It used heims and .250 wall DOM. It worked well took and few hits but after about 7-8K miles and a fair amount of trail use a couple of the heims did start to show some wear. I also ran a steering box brace.



After going from 35's to 37's I ran the same system a couple of times and it actually wasn't that bad unless the front end was bound up. Once it was bound up I had to get the Jeep moving to turn the damn thing so I upgraded to hydro assist. I'm running a PSC kit with a worked TJ pump and I've been really happy with it the couple of times I've had it out. I also reinforced the area around the box attachment area and added a cooler. I have already picked up a new spare pressure line and I plan on picking up a spare steering box and pump to at least put in the back of the truck when out wheeling. Spare fittings and hoses are a good idea - I used my spare hose the first time out. Not on my rig but used it none the less.

Also excess backlash within the steering gear can develop over time. It is easily repairable. Locate the steering gear lash adjuster (allen headed stud with a 5/8 or 11/16 jam nut) and loosen the jam nut while holding the center stud with an allen wrench. With the vehicle off, have an assistant or mildly capable drunken friend wiggle the steering wheel back and forth to the limits of its freeplay while slowly tightening the center stud until all freeplay is gone. Then tighten jam nut.

To add to what Tech said - Mark the position of the center stud before you start adjusting too. Once you remove any slack or freeplay, I'd even back the adjuster off just a little bit before you tighten down the jam nut. Use caution (obviously) when making adjustments!

I was planning on using wj knuckles for the brakes but with 3-4" lift didnt want to run the full highsteer so the tb bracket wouldnt be so high. So I figured Id just run an otk style setup in the tierod holes and cut off the dl arm from the pass knuckle. Anybody see an issue with that?

If you do just run the OTK can you just leave the factory "high steer" arm in place instead of cutting it off? It might be worth it to just build a taller, strong track bar bracket?

[downtowncb]

ATL school me on ackerman angle... what is an ideal value for a freeway driven rig such as ours? How is it measured? It appears it is affected by toe...

I am running ORO's U-Turn steering and it seems that it has a lot more "scrub" at full lock than the factory steering did, is this a greater ackerman angle by any chance? It seems to wear out the inside of the tire a lot quicker so I really have to stay on top of rotating my tires.

So it deletes the steering stabilizer but I suppose one could be installed from the tb to dl.

Tech, this is what I did when I swapped to coil overs and could no longer fit the stabilizer in it's stock location. It doubles as a steering box brace

[BigDaveZJ]

So it deletes the steering stabilizer but I suppose one could be installed from the tb to dl.

I haven't run a steering stabilizer on mine for years now. No shimmy or other adverse effects.

[IndyZJ]

I haven't run a steering stabilizer on mine for years now. No shimmy or other adverse effects.

Same here. Stabilizers are great for covering slop in parts as they get worn, which I think is what they're really for. I would rather know if and when something is on it's way out. In my experience, they have never made a difference in the way the wheel reacts to hitting something or done any kind of "stabilizing". The last stabilizer I put on my ZJ leaked out without me noticing over the course of about 5k miles. It was new when I put it on, but shot when I pulled it to see if it really was doing anything after reading similar opinions. It hasn't had one for a couple years now, and neither will my YJ.

[Jeeptech01]

Thanks for the replies guys. I havent ever designed a steering setup so all this info is very helpful. Im sure I can find a place for a stabilizer. I honestly dont need one to cover up anything but I do feel that they are helpful when hitting things with larger than stock tires that will try to pull the steering wheel from your hands. My wife drives my rig from time to time.

Not many rocks in Fl so I should be ok with the tre's

Tks Fuego

Ryan thanks for posting that. I think we spoke about your setup in another thread. I'd prefer to run tre's since it is my dd and Im not sure how the rod ends would fare in that type of enviornment. As far as the tb mount goes I figured I'd try and keep it simple since going otk instead of highsteer would only require the tb mount maybe 1-1.5 higher so I could probably mod the stock config as well as save some uptravel since Im only around 3" of lift. In the future I hope to go up to 4" on 35's.

I know what everyone says about dumping cash into a 30 too so I am trying to be careful how much bling I add but at the same time cheaping out on steering = stupid. Im not sure what will happen with the 30+5.3vortec+33's-35's+florida sand/mud+lighter xj wheeling equation. Hiopefully not = boom for a while.

[rstrucks]

Good steering is something that is built into the entire plan of the rig itself, rather than an afterthought. I could go on and on about this, but this just means that trusses are built for correct cylinder mounting, rear axle width and wheel backspacing are chosen for ideal ackerman, tie rods are placed for max. uptravel, etc etc.

Did you mean scrub radius when you were talking about choosing wheel back spacing? Ackerman (from my understanding) only has to do with the relationship of the front axle pivot points (king pins or ball joints) and the steering linkage (tie rod) attachment points.



For a simple explantion - Ackerman is the term for having your steering tires/wheels turn at slightlly different angles while turning. The outside tire needs to turn less (larger arc) than the inside tire (smaller arc) and without ackerman angle built in the tires would scrub through a turn. To picture it - if you drew a line straight out from your rear axle and then drew two lines perpindicular to each wheel while turned, where they intersect the rear axle line they should meet. That would put the tires turning around the same center point.

[SirFuego]

One other thing I'd like to stress, from personal experience, is the need for a steering box brace and power steering cooler when you are running bigger tires. Many folks on here have made their own steering box brace, but you can purchase one through Kevin's Offroad:
http://kevinsoffroad.com/zj/zj_steeringgearbrace.html

I have not had any steering issues since I've installed the brace. A little side note is that it mounts to the sway bar mount, so if you have removed those altogether, you will need to use a couple washers to get it to line up.

A waggy box, which mounts using 4 bolts, is a good alternative to a stock steering box. In both instances where I cracked my steering box on the trails, you can tell the fracture was due to stresses put on the box that would have been eliminated by the 4th bolt.

Steering box failure usually occurs due to the steering box bolts loosening up over time. However, that is not always the case because my bolts were not loose the second time I broke a steering box. I would feel a little "pop" in my steering wheel when the box was fractured.

The power steering cooler is a good idea because the bigger tires put more stress on the steering box, which creates more heat. You can get a power steering cooler from basically anywhere. Mine is from Summit Racing:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DER-13200/

One last thing is that when you check over your rig before and/or after you wheel, be sure to check the tightness of not only the steering box bolts, but also the pitman arm nut. The pitman arm nut can become loose even over the span of a day when your steering box is working hard. I was told by a friend that the pitman arm nut should be the "tightest nut on your vehicle". Before going down to GSSE this year, I made sure everything was tight. After finishing up wheeling the first day, I checked over the rig the next morning and was able to rotate the pitman arm nut about 1.5 revolutions before I couldn't tighten it anymore.

[ajmorell]

Also excess backlash within the steering gear can develop over time. It is easily repairable. Locate the steering gear lash adjuster (allen headed stud with a 5/8 or 11/16 jam nut) and loosen the jam nut while holding the center stud with an allen wrench. With the vehicle off, have an assistant or mildly capable drunken friend wiggle the steering wheel back and forth to the limits of its freeplay while slowly tightening the center stud until all freeplay is gone. Then tighten jam nut.

*Do the above with care as tightening the lash too much will undoubtedly bring the suck AND ruin the steering gear*

I was told by several other people that to make this adjustment the vehicle needs to be running unless you have a manual steering box.

[Jeeptech01]

I have always done it with it off so you get a more accurate feel for the level of slop in the box. With assist from the ps pump the loosness may be exagerated.

[SB406]

1) There is a small dead spot due to the tie rod "rolling" over due to the drag link forces. You can get a little spacer from JCROffroad to remedy this, but I've never had that spacer last more than two wheeling trips, so I just started dealing with the dead spot. I have been wanting to use a hole saw on a polyethylene cutting board (yes, that thing you use in the kitchen) and make my own, but never did.

Why not just rotate the tie rod ends to oppose each other? That's how I keep my ram from rolling the tie rod over.

Also, Hydro Assist takes a ton of stress off the steering box by pushing off the axle instead of the frame.

[SB406]

3rd (in Progress)
Full hydro. Same 2x8 Single ended tractor ram as above, mounted in same position. Removed the drag link and steering box. Added a 5.9 Cu in orbital. Stock pump with no mods (so far). Initial tests seem excellent. Steering is very fast and responsive.
Initial test drive confirmed that the pump could not perform at low RPM. This was a case of poor parts store quality. The pump was on for 1 run and was feeling sluggish by the end of the weekend. Changed pump, and it seems much better in the shop. Next test drive will be 4WD in a couple of days. I may need to bump up the relief pressure a touch.
Will report back with results.
Cost to upgrade- $225

Update- I ended up having to bump up the relief pressure in the pump (West Texas mod). I didn't drill anything. Just turned up the pressure. It worked very well this past weekend at Big Dogs. It was slightly underpowered turning left in a couple of spots where I was really bound up, but I liked the fact that I didn't have enough power to rip knuckles off. It was very fast and responsive on hill climbs, as I found out coming up hells hole when I got bounced in the ruts. I was able to whip the wheel one way, then the other without having to lift.

[Jeeptech01]

I have a question I'd like answered if someone could. It is in regard to keeping the tb and dl in paralell.

So if one goes to an otk setup the tb and dl will no longer be paralell. There are 2 forseeable ways to fix this (at least to me) one easy and one hard/time consuming.

1) Build higher tb mount on axle which will mean moving it inboard and shortening the tb. This will result in paralell tb and dl that are in the same plane but will follow a different arc due to length differences.

2) Change pittman arm to make dl and tb paralell but they wont be in the same plane. However they will follow similar arc since they are very close in length.

Please correct me If Im wrong on my above statements/assumptions. My question is this what are the strengths/weaknesses and drivability issues with the above solutions. Im trying to figure out which way is right for me.

[slim616]

I haven't seen this mentioned here but I know it been covered in other post. We should go over pumps and tips on keeping them from burning up. I mailed my PSC pump out today to see if they'll warranty it. I was thinking about picking up another and throwing it in and just keeping the old one as a spare in case of problems. What do you all suggest. If i remember correctly I think the majority had like Howe i think?

Also just MY .02 when you upgrade to hydro assist or full hydro, spare parts are a must to keep with you. By not having them really brings the suck when you try to get the rig off the trail.

This is one thing I at least like about hydro assist is if something goes wrong you can just cap the lines and still limp it off the trail. Full hrdryo means your screwed till you can fix the parts.