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10-01-2010, 03:31 PM
Rear: 8.8" or D44. For an 8.8 upgrade, I would recommend welding the tubes as well as a truss (I recommend that for any axle to be honest). In addition, I would also look into making a "ramp" under the pinion to get rid of any hangup points on the diff. I never did the latter and wish I did.Originally Posted by dp96zj
Front: HP30 or some type of Dana 44. If you know you are eventually going to 1 tons, I would just stick with a 30 and stay at 33s if you don't want to polish the 30. If you know that you aren't going past 35s or 36s, I'd just build the 44 and be done.
Originally Posted by SB406
10-01-2010, 03:33 PM
There are a few examples in the links in my post on the first page. But in all honesty, it'd be easiest for you to take some time and search/find out what people have used an 8.8 by looking through build threads. Not to mention, you can get the basic idea of an 8.8/hp30 truss from looking at any trussed axles, really.
10-01-2010, 03:47 PM
I agree, I watched that vid a few days ago and those Sup. Import shafts seem to be the best all around.
I'm sure that's the case. I know when I looked at Cam's photo, all I noticed was that the Ten Factory was a lot smalller. I'm always pulled towards bigger shafts.............On a side note, do you think that Yukon is intentionally putting out shafts with higher torque yields, because people tend to look at torque rather than deflection?
10-01-2010, 03:49 PM
Nevermind, I won't say anything. This is supposed to be a tech-thread
10-01-2010, 04:05 PM
My rig originally had a 35 and LP30. I swapped out the 35 pretty early, and went to a HP30 a couple years ago when I went from 33's to 35's and regeared to 4.56.
The only issue I've had with the 8.8 was bending a shaft about 5 years ago. It was a full throttle assault on Double Whammy on Golden Spike. Basically very high traction, two decent sized ledges at once, at a medium incline. I didn't have a truss on it at the time as I was on short arms still, but added one when I went to long arms.
I've kept the 30 open up front because it's rare that I really need the front locked on the trails I run, and I don't want to dump selectable locker money into a 30, and with an automatic locker I'm just asking to break something up there. For shafts I'm just running stock TJ shafts and they have held up so far, but I've been intentionally easy on the front axle to prolong their life.
I don't see myself going any bigger than 35's, so if the 30 ends up not getting the job done I may do a HP44 at some point, but the cost there is big so it will take a significant failure on the 30.
10-01-2010, 06:43 PM
I think it makes a difference in axle swap choices based on if you are doing both axles all at once or if you are doing one at a time. It also makes a difference if you are in dire straits because your Jeep is down or if you have time to plan and get parts as you go.
My rear axle was a situation where I was down and didnt want to fix the D35, however I had time to wait for my new axle to come in becaue my Jeep is not a daily driver. My front axle was a different story as I collected parts for 3 years and finally have it under my Jeep as of last month.
I have a Currie HP 9 with Detroit and Chromoly 31 spline shafts in the rear. it is also trussed when I did the TNT long arms. I ordered it new specific to my application after breaking 2 shafts in 2 days on a Dana 35 at a GSW in Moab. I weighed a lot of options before going with Currie.
Some of the options were go with F150 8.8 and have re-drilled for 5 on 5 pattern. This would have been 65WMS-WMS and the WJ is 63.5 which means spacers up front. Go with Explorer 8.8 and put spacers on the rear. Spacers are ok with me. The Isuzu D44 is same width as WJ but 6 bolt lugs.
However going through the options a HP axle would reduce the need for a SYE in my 242 TC. Saves me 4-600 on the SYE and not to mention a new Drive Shaft at 3-400.
Obviously the WJ uses the rear tone rings for speedo. I wired the front TRs to the rear input and discod the ABS CPU. This has worked for my speedometer for 5 years now with no problem.
I spent just under 3k including shipping for the Currie. I figured an 8.8 built up will be close to 2k with similar internal hardware. Figure buy diff, Locker, shafts, gears plus set up labor, mounting hardware etc.
I went somewhere different up front. I was able to get a custom HP 30 housing that was re-tubed for WJ width and had the Cs set for proper pinion and caster based on my lift height. I got the housing before the JK axles were an option. I liked the idea of the HP 30 because I could re-use the internals like my ARB, shafts, 1 ton steering and I would still have the ABS rings for the Speedo. Again saving me the SYE and Drive shaft costs.
I ended up with one of the more over built Dana 30s I know. I bought some new parts, some used parts, did some horse trading and etc. It has 30 spline ARB, 30 spline chromoly shafts with 760 ujoints, trussed, akebono calipers, stillen rotors, 1 ton steering OTK and is trussed. Drives great because a near perfect pinion angle and near perfect caster. I guess my weakest links are the ball joints and the R/P. However the HP30s are stronger and I have only replaced 1 set of BJs in 80k miles at 75kmiles. I run 33s with 4.56:1 gearing and pretty satisfied with the trails I run with them.
I previously had 4.10s with the 33s and was pleased with the hwy performance. However I was a little short on crawl ratio and regeared to 4.56s. So far I have just barely broken in the gears but the hwy performance is better with less hunting between 3 and 4th gear. I have not wheeled with the new front axle and gears to comment there. Should be good but just not enough break in miles yet.
I did pay to have the axle completed as I have limited free time these days and that does add to the build costs. However in any other option it would cost me too.
Corey Jpranger did a great job on the build.
If you are dong a WJ all at once I suggest going with an older F150 9 inch rear / HP D44 front combo from the same donor. Put in a SYE with speedo output and call it a day. Will save you some money and head aches.
I like the Dana 60 and 14 bolt idea too. However there is a limited amount of room with the rear gas tank and some clearance issues up front too. Takes more planning in other words.
I will say with WJs be sure to do your homework first.
Keith
Last edited by Mtn WJ; 10-01-2010 at 06:50 PM.
10-01-2010, 07:42 PM
Agreed! I've put thought into it too, and if doing it all at once and not going with tons, the HP44 and 9" are the perfect combo for a WJ. They give you a liiiittle extra width, and all the strength benefits! 5 on 5.5 wheels are way easy to come by too.
10-01-2010, 07:54 PM
I've only blown one ujoint in my life lol. TJ Rubi, I guess they use wax to hold the caps on from the factory?
Anyhow, I'd like to learn more about cryo, doesn't it make the metal more brittle?
10-01-2010, 08:03 PM
So I am an idiot. I just sold my used Crane diff cover to someone off of another board. I sold it because I thougt it had the filler hole down low for LP axles. I figured it was ok because I have a warn guard that has room for either style diff filler hole. Well for some reason the Crane I just sold has the filler inlet in the same spot as the HP cover. I only noticed this when I cleaned up the crane for the buyer. I already made the commitment to the guy who drove over hear. Even thought I was pissed at myself internally. The crane is much nicer than the Warn I am keeping. Like I said do your homework.
Last edited by Mtn WJ; 10-01-2010 at 08:09 PM.
10-01-2010, 09:06 PM
One thing to also keep in mind when deciding your tire size and axle size is your motor size. I ran 36s on a 30/8.8 with no issues when I had a 4.0 motor. I upgraded to.5.2 with the same set up and blew a 30 shaft every other trail.
Though I run 60 s now I do have to say that stock 8.8 took every thing I could throw at it. Even when I had to do stuff in 2wd because of broken front shafts.
When I get around a real key board ill go into a little more detail on real world cost of building 1tons on a budget. It's always the little stuff that you over look in the planning stage that throws you over budget.
10-01-2010, 10:12 PM
Actually, the exact opposite -- it makes the metal softer. This allows the metal to "give" a bit more during shock loads. As a result, cryo'd gears tend to wear faster. Usually, when cryo'ing gears, the metal is heat treated first to reduce the overall hardness of the metal, then it is cryo'd afterwards. I had a HP30 R&P cryo'd, but I can't really comment on how effective it actually was since I my R&P always failed due to another part failing internally.
If you get it done at a place like Longfield, they will ask you if you DD your vehicle or not. A non-DD vehicle gets the full cryo treatment since r&p wear isn't going to happen much on the trails. A DD'd vehicle has one of the processes removed to reduce the wear on the R&P.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...highlight=cryo
Last edited by SirFuego; 10-01-2010 at 10:18 PM.
Originally Posted by SB406
10-01-2010, 11:33 PM
OK just to throw another question out there, because I'm no tech...and really depend on the information I get here and talking with some of you guys when we are out wheeling...
Along with the "low budget" argument, I would also like to add, that My ZJ is being built for "multi-purpose" use. I want a dependable daily driver, that behaves well on street, and mild expedition wheeling (similar trails to your San Juan trip Dave), but can also perform well in Moab, meaning I would like to know its capable of really handling Pritchett Canyon, Area BFE, Moab Rim etc...
I have three possible options, I have a friend willing to sell me an HP 44 and 9" out of a 78 F-150, but I may be able to get my hands on A 60 and 9" out of a 72 Ford 3/4 ton. The third option would be 86 Waggy 44 and 8.8...I know im going to be swapping gears and buying lockers for either option...so I will be going 4:11 gears, and mechanical locker in the rear, selectable up front.
My current specs: 94 ZJ 5.2 Limited
6.25" lift, long arm front adjustable short arms rear
Some trimming, running 33's
I will be running 35's and already plan on buying new wheels, so bolt pattern doeskin matter, other than front and rear need to match.
My biggest concern with full width, is the additional width, how will that affect the street driving? Can I with different wheel spacing lessen the notice-ability of the wider axles?
OK experts....
10-02-2010, 12:00 AM
John,
I think your ultimate goal is about the same as mine, without the daily driver aspect. Although with the Super Duty getting up there in mileage I may need to rely on the ZJ as a DD here and there until I can swing the $$ for something else.
I would do the 9/44 combo myself. The Waggy 44 is low pinion, and bolt patterns won't match up to an Explorer 8.8.
Remember with wider axles you can negate some of the width by changing up the backspacing on the wheels. And the wider stance should make the rig a bit more stable too.
10-02-2010, 01:23 AM
we need to get some 609 tech in here as that seems to be the ultimate axle, especially for our rigs and a good alternative to 1 tons if your runnng 35's and you don't want to be stuck on every farkin rock on the rubicon.
10-02-2010, 01:54 AM
Not many people have 'em under their trucks, but I'll let ya know lol! FearTheDentist had his 309 (lol) that had the housing break...egh lol! I'll be working with osme tight spaces on my WJ, should be a fun challenge
10-02-2010, 02:27 AM
This is how I'm building my current YJ project - fun and easy to drive on the street with the ability to reliably run moderate trails without any trouble on 35-37s. I'm running 5.13s to keep the trans as happy as possible, and highly recommend running at least 4.56s on 35s for the same reason, especially with a Chrysler OD. This is all behind a 5.3 with an auto, and the weight should be similar to an equivalently built ZJ.
It's getting a '78 F250 hp44 up front with 1/2 ton hubs/ spindles to match the rear. That gives me a HP center with a lot of extra material/ housing strengh (for a 44) and 3", 0.50" wall tubes. With Superior shafts and decent joints, I don't see this being a problem for anything in the 37" and down range. The selectable hubs, bigger brakes, and stronger BJs and tubes on 44s are all big advantages over D30s.
For the back it's getting a '79 F150 9" with a Detroit and 31 spline shafts for ease of getting/ finding replacements. I'm eventually going to go to a Yukon 3rd member, but the stock unit will work for now. With good shafts and a stronger 3rd, this will be completely reliable, too. Ford 60s can be good rear axles, but I would only run one with 35 spline shafts and it isn't much stronger than an equivalently built 9". The 60 does seem to have a huge advantage if you wanted to run an ARB, though.
This will be a pretty evenly-matched setup that doesn't sacrifice much ground clearance for anything below 37s, which are the biggest I want to run to keep local wheeling spots challenging. It is about as good as "1/2 ton" setups get, IMO.
You will love the stability that even a 5" wider axle will give. Of course, if you want you could run 5" of backspacing and tuck the wheels right back under the Jeep, but I would suggest going with the added stability.
Oh, AFAIK, all F250s of those years got 60 rears. Only a couple specific models got a 60 front, so 8 lugs and 3" tubes does not guaranty it's a 60.
Edit: fawk this is a long post. One more thing for now - Don't get a 44 with cast wedges. There is no axle tube going through the wedges and the tubes are smaller and thinner than some others, like the one I'm running.
Last edited by IndyZJ; 10-02-2010 at 02:32 AM.
Originally Posted by CrawlerReady
10-02-2010, 10:24 AM
Thanks for the info Dave, I think I was pretty much leaning that way...just basically trying to get trusted input to let me know I'm doing it right...
I guess I should clear this up...its not actually a daily driver, but more or less when I'm home, sometimes I like to drive it around town, but as close as I live to Moab, I usually drive it down there, and want to be able to keep doing that...it will probably still get more overall mileage off road than on...but I want it safe, stable, comfortable, however you want to say it, on the road too...
10-02-2010, 11:38 AM
MY WJ is not my DD either. However I drive it to trails and tow a pop up camper. I built it as an adventure rig that is a capable off roader. This means it needs to drive very well on the highway too and be stable enough to carry a large canoe on the roof while pulling a trailer. These factors greatly influenced my choice in almost everything I did to it.
I want to keep it that way too. Not interested in a tow rig/trailer. My Jeep/camper is my RV in other words.
10-02-2010, 03:43 PM
I like Ryans idea of the SD axles, they are plentiful and cheap.
Is the D50 a 44 r&p with 60 outer's? Or is it the other way around? Cuz that could meet alot of peoples small tire needs fairly cheap.
10-02-2010, 03:48 PM
I can contribute some 44a info. This is more for the WJ guys since IMO it would be better to swap in an 8.8 if you have a ZJ. But anything is better than a 35 so..
The 44a is a fairly stout axle and as stated previously will stand up to 33's without issue.Also known as a 44hd it has a large gearset with a pinion similar in size to a dana 60. The major drawback is the alum housing which tends to flex and cause parts breakage. It is aalso quite easy to get large gashes in the housing from rocks etc. The other issue is again due to the alum housing and that is that it tends to eat carrier bearings.
Housing fix: Aftermarket steel cover, Truss ( WJ's will need to run on the bottom to avoid clearance issues with the tri link balljoint) Skid plate up to the yoke.
Bearing fix: If you have an unmolested 44a replace the carrier bearings and subtract .002 of shim to lessen the preload on the carrier. If not measure pttr without the carrier in. Then set up the carrier preload to add 10 inlbs to the ttr. FYI new dry pinion bearings when setting up the pinion in a 44a should yield 13-16 inlbs pttr.
Heres a pic of the 44a truss I built for my 44a. I followed the contour of the pumpkin all the way across and it is 1" at its narrowest point. Then capped it off with flat bar. The skid is welded to the flat bar cap and uses a 4" exhaust clamp u bolt at front welded through two holes. Materials were 6"x 1/4" and 2" x 1/4 probably cost me $30.
10-02-2010, 03:55 PM
That truss looks nice. IIRC, a bottom truss is technically stronger than a truss above the axle.....
....but IMO I would avoid a truss below the axle tubes for our sport. Every inch of ground clearance counts and you can still make a very stout axle with nothing except the pumpkin below the axle tubes.
That said, I dig the ramp below the pumpkin. I guess technically it sacrifices some ground clearance, but sacrificing a bit of ground clearance is sometimes OK for the sake of getting rid of a hang up point.
Last edited by SirFuego; 10-02-2010 at 03:58 PM.
Originally Posted by SB406
10-02-2010, 04:04 PM
Neither. The D50 has its own unique R&P and carrier (9" IIRC). On that note, there's a guy on pirate4x4 selling kits to put D50 gears in a HP44, along with a kit to put D70 gears into a 60 and 80 gears into a 70HD.
D50s do use 60 outers for the most part. At least in the TTB versions, the spindles were a little different, with the 50s having less of a lip on the inside edge to engage the knuckle because its caliper brackets were part of the knuckles vs. the 60 having a seperate caliper bracket. I think the SD 50 and 60 outers are the same, but I could be wrong here.
I agree on the SD axles. They regularly go for about ~$500 a set around here. I would not be afraid to run the balljoints and unit bearings on anything lighter than a SD.
Originally Posted by CrawlerReady
10-02-2010, 04:57 PM
Another nice thing about running unit bearings is the added allowance for running a high backspacing wheel. Normal D60 hubs have so much stickout, the unit bearing style would allow 5-6-7" backspacing wheels to be used if wanted without the hub sticking out abnormally past the wheel
10-02-2010, 07:55 PM
Thanks! I really wanted to do one on top that utilized the mounting points of the balljoint but I also wanted a skid and the only other way I've seen them attached was via the cover bolts which IMO = fail. FWIW the only real clearance lost is whats on the sides of the pumpkin. There is a large stiffening rib at the back edge of the diff that is covered by the truss so clearance loss below the pumpkin is around 1/2" or less including the thickness of the plate.
?? Could someone post up the years and models the Ford HP44 was used in and which ones had the welded on wedges. Im considering looking for one for the XJ just in case. I'd want to narrow it to a width close to the 8.8. I know most people go waggy width but Im not sure how that compares to the 8.8
10-02-2010, 08:21 PM
Never really thought about it, but why is it stronger on the bottom?
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