creative ways to haul my M416?

[Sudz]

It's like the story about the mexican fisherman...

http://www.protolink.com/MexicanFisherman.html

good one

[ATL ZJ]

Cody, you raise excellent points and I can relate... occasionally I find myself having to budget my time between normal life activities and stuff that has to be done before a wheeling trip. Deciding whether it's all worthwhile depends on whether you enjoy the process of modifying and maintaining your equipment.

The trails I enjoy running require well-setup equipment and prep work between trips. I know for a fact that I would not have fun stepping down to a less challenging wheeling experience. I'm pushing toward making the ratio of time in the garage to time on the trail be closer to 1:1. To me building something is more gratifying and relaxing than laying around eating chips and watching celebrities dance on tv. As long as I can do it when it doesn't interfere with other stuff I want to do, it's great.

Dave, I agree that you are treading an odd line between rockcrawling and adventure wheeling. Whatever you enjoy most, cater your setup towards that and ditch the stuff you don't need.

[Ted_Z]

Cody, you have a great knack of putting things in perspective.

I still like getting out of town and exploring, wheeling, camping ect, but I think as we age, the gadgets help us keep the experience enjoyable. Sure, when I was 14 I didn't mind sleeping on the ground and roughing it a bit. But now with the family, dog etc the gadgets allow for me to keep going out.

... But I decided to keep it simple and not haul another contraption on the trail and risk it's own flats and issues...and for what? I can fit everything I could possibly need in the jeep just fine....

Unfortunetly I can't fit everything in the jeep anymore. The dog goes in the way back, the kid/baby seat in the back seat so the trailer is a must if we are all going. For the couple nights I'll be out on the White Rim trail before GSW, there's no need because its just me and a buddy.

Building my trailer has been a fun project in itself now that my ZJ is built close to where I want it to be. I've taken note of Dave's and other's experiences and as a result I don't think I'll ever take my ride bigger than its at now. I want to be able to drive it to Moab or to the local trails without the need of a deticated tow rig.

[BigDaveZJ]

Shit, cut out all the extra stuff and just drink that beer. Life is easy For the cost of a RTT and a few days in the garage, you could spend a week camping on the beach in mexico drinking corona's, watching the sunset, and eating fish tacos.

I had an m416 with the same intent as you--to put a tent on it. But I decided to keep it simple and not haul another contraption on the trail and risk it's own flats and issues...and for what? I can fit everything I could possibly need in the jeep just fine. I can also cover ground a lot faster without it.

I hope you don't think I'm being a jerk about this. I'm just bored and playing the devil's advocate a little.

You're not being a jerk about anything. This is really what forums are about, someone who's BTDT providing feedback for others.

The money part of it kinda sucks, but I certainly didn't pick this hobby based on fiscal responsibility. And with what I have invested into the trailer so far, add the tent and the lid, if I decide a year or two from now it's rediculous, I honestly think I could get >80% of my investment out of it by selling it. Hell, beat to shit rusty trailers with original axles and 40 year old tires are selling left and right for what I've got in mine so far.

The "plan" is that we'll pack most of the trailer early in the year, and be able to head out at a moment's notice, just pack up food and clothes and we're gone. We'll see how it works out I guess.

[Cody]

I still like getting out of town and exploring, wheeling, camping ect, but I think as we age, the gadgets help us keep the experience enjoyable. Sure, when I was 14 I didn't mind sleeping on the ground and roughing it a bit. But now with the family, dog etc the gadgets allow for me to keep going out.

Absolutely, and I can understand that. Especially with kids, dog, wife etc. Making them more comfortable not only means a more enjoyable time for you, but an easier time getting them to go more often so those luxuries actually equate to more trail time. That's the spirit and I'm sure one day I'll be in that position.

We had a guy come up from New Mexico to do a 6 day run through Beef Basin and into Moab from the south a couple years ago. He was in a big 100 series cruiser, decked out with everything, pulling a cool off-road pop up trailer. Just him, by himself. He was a nice enough guy, but it was a ridiculous setup for one person and he easily cost us two hours of time every day due to how much slower he had to go with the trailer. Two hours is the difference between watching the sunset over a steak and beer, and setting up in the dark.

Some people get caught up in having the most novel stuff, and that pursuit ends up costing them lots of their free time and can eliminate trips from their schedule. There is a quote in Walden that I always go back to

.....instead of studying how to make it worth men's while to buy my baskets,
I studied rather how to avoid the necessity of selling them.

Stuff begets more stuff.

I do realize that I am a little different than most of you guys in that I don't enjoy tinkering and working on things, so that skews my perspective. I would rather spend my time doing something else--snowboarding, hiking, brewing beer, floating a river etc. Sitting in the garage building or fixing stuff isn't something I grew up doing, so I'm not good at it and I tend to not like things I suck at.

[BigDaveZJ]

I guess I haven't encountered this "slower pace" thing yet with my trailer. I'm around 400-500 dirt miles with it, and outside of it making my cooler into a giant blender, I haven't noticed a point in time where I had to slow down because of it. I found myself having to wait for others to catch up just as much as normal?

If I was packing for a 5 night trip for just me I would pack a little different, but outside of clothes and food for additional people/dogs and a smaller tent, it wouldn't really be all that different. I spent several hundred nights in tents growing up, and fell into the "if there's a chance I'll need it and it can fit, it goes with me" mindset. I definitely take "Be Prepared" a bit far sometimes for sure.

[BigDaveZJ]

Oh, and damn you Cody for mentioning the double cab Taco's. All I've done so far today is look at Taco builds.

[Cody]

Oh, and damn you Cody for mentioning the double cab Taco's. All I've done so far today is look at Taco builds.

Ya, tell me about it. Two of the guys that always go with me both have them....supercharged to boot. On big trips those guys routinely out pace me by about 15 minutes per hour. Granted I'm setup for 2" of uptravel and my body roll is an issue, but even with sways and airbumps that I'm hoping to get setup I don't think I'll be able to keep up.

When I went to Death Valley this past february I rode along in Kurt's (cruiser outfitters) double cab. I got to drive about 300 dirt miles in one day and those things just plane haul balls. On heavily washboarded and rutted out roads that I would probably do 40-50 on, we could easily do 60-75.

In a perfect world I would love a 4 door taco with a flippac, a buggy, a tow rig, trailer, a commuter car, a dirt bike, a cruiser, a freeway/roadtrip bike, a boat, kayak, etc etc. I want all of those things, but the financial burden of them is only part of the story. You have to also be able to spend the time with them to justify the cost, and that is the thing I have the hardest time finding. Time. The worlds most precious fixed resource.

[K2]

Shit, cut out all the extra stuff and just drink that beer. Life is easy For the cost of a RTT and a few days in the garage, you could spend a week camping on the beach in mexico drinking corona's, watching the sunset, and eating fish tacos.

I have to disagree with this. I don't think you were being literal, but the message was there. That is one trip, you may have a great time, but now you need to save another $1500 to go again. So the math is actually backwards. If you put that $1500 into gadgets, you have gadgets and can go over and over. I love to shoot guns, but once I fire a round, it is gone, and I need to buy more. I bought a bow and all the gear, and I can shoot over and over without buying much more, just some upkeep.

Ted hit the nail on the head. I have 2 large dogs, a 4 year old and a wife who likes to be comfy. I have a trailer hitch basket thing, and a cargo top carrier. I stuff both of them to go out for a weekend of camping. So I would love a trailer, and of course your laundry list of items after I hit the powerball. But I am like Dave, and "be prepared" is at my core.

[BigDaveZJ]

But I am like Dave, and "be prepared" is at my core.

I actually had a ScoutMaster tell me to stop bringing so much stuff on campouts. I asked him "has there ever been anything I needed that I didn't have?" I got to bring whatever I wanted after that.

[cLAYH]

Here's how I do it:



I could see you doing this two ways, either put a hitch on the back of the gooseneck and hook the M416 on the back of it. Or put a smaller camper on instead of the big 5th wheel camper. This will leave more deck space to drive the ZJ and M416 up onto it.

Not sure what you laws are like where you are but up here you can only pull triples if your total length is under 65ft(including tow rig) and the first trailer must have a pin type of hitch(aka 5th wheel). Neither bumper mounted ball hitches OR bed mounted gooseneck balls are acceptable. Must be a 5th wheel hitch. That "goosneck" trailer in the pic has actually been converted to a 5th wheel style hitch.

I put that trailer together for under $10,000CDN. $4500 for the 5thwheel camper and $4500 for the 30ft gooseneck. Trailers seem to be cheaper in the US so you might be able to do it cheaper.

[leeanderthal]

^ Hillbilly high-rise. I dig it!

[cLAYH]

I call it the Redneck toy hauler......

[Cody]

I have to disagree with this. I don't think you were being literal, but the message was there. That is one trip, you may have a great time, but now you need to save another $1500 to go again. So the math is actually backwards. If you put that $1500 into gadgets, you have gadgets and can over and over.

Nope, the math is spot on.

I'll tell my kids and my kid's kids about that trip, but I will never tell them about the trailer I built a tent for in my garage after work. Most people have gadgets at the expense of other things....like trips. So unless the gadgets are more memorable than the trip, then my math is spot on.

If you have enough money that you can spend $1500 on gadgets without it coming out of the trip budget, then it doesn't matter.

Besides, for too many people buy/build things like an expedition trailer or a RTT as a talking point for them. They like the attention of it and people asking questions so they can have the opportunity to tell that person about how much of an adventurer they think they are. "hey, cool trailer!" "ya, I built it for this and that and the other and I've taken it here and there". Nothing irritates me more...and yes the irony in that bothering me is not lost.

[K2]

Nope, the math is spot on.

I'll tell my kids and my kid's kids about that trip, but I will never tell them about the trailer I built a tent for in my garage after work. Most people have gadgets at the expense of other things....like trips. So unless the gadgets are more memorable than the trip, then my math is spot on.

If you have enough money that you can spend $1500 on gadgets without it coming out of the trip budget, then it doesn't matter.

Besides, for too many people buy/build things like an expedition trailer or a RTT as a talking point for them. They like the attention of it and people asking questions so they can have the opportunity to tell that person about how much of an adventurer they think they are. "hey, cool trailer!" "ya, I built it for this and that and the other and I've taken it here and there". Nothing irritates me more...and yes the irony in that bothering me is not lost.

Sorry, in the sentence you quoted me on there was supposed to be the word go. I changed it. I dont have experience with this group, but to say "most" and "too many people", seems to be a very large generalization. Plus for this topic we are talking about Dave, so I am sure he will use it.

If you don't go on a trip once to build this trailer, then your next trips become cheaper because that is a one time expense. Yes some money will go to upkeep, but that is a smaller amount and further down the road (pun intended). So now he needs less money to go on a sweet trip he will tell his kids about and many others with the next $1500 he would need to go to who knows where and sit on the beach. Now at the sacrifice of the first trip, he can take more, more often.

[Cody]

I guess I'm not following you very well. How does the trailer make it less expensive? I understand how you're trying to amortize the cost of the trailer across multiple trips, but we can neither assume that the trailer is required to go on trips and therefor a necessary cost, nor find any argument proving it in any way reduces the costs associated with going on a trip. It's neither a required fixed cost nor a vehicle (not the motorized kind) that reduces variable costs in your model. As was mentioned before, for those that have kids/dogs/wives it becomes much more of a required cost. For others it isn't, it's a luxury that won't necessarily get them out on the trail more frequently.

In reality it adds time and money to each additional trip. Gas mileage goes down, you have wear and tear on tires, shocks, springs, etc (you'd be surprised how quickly the tires wear down on those trailers), and in my world time isn't free, so you also have to account for the additional time to acquire/maintain/fix/pack etc the trailer. The extra time to pack the trailer is really not an issue since, as Dave mentioned, you can pack it and leave it ready to roll and that is certainly a convenience for people who can't leave their rig sitting in the driveway pre-packed like I can.

also, those tents won't last nearly as long as a nice ground tent. I've been using the same Mountain Hardware 4 season tent for 17 years. Kurt has gone through 4 RTT's in 5 years. Granted, only 2 were replaced due to wear and tear as the guy easily spends 50 nights per year in them, and the other two were replaced due to newer/nicer models coming out that, as a dealer, he can justify buying as a business expense.

[K2]

Now that the site is up and I have more than one minute, I think I see the gap. I was arguing with your statement he should forgo the trailer and spend it on a trip to Mexico for a week drinking Coronas on the beach. I was stating that one trip to Mexico for $1500, is not the same value as a buying a trailer. I dont know to much about those RTTs, but I was looking more toward his question, which we have gotten so far away from (sorry Dave), that he wanted to use a trailer. I know these numbers are going to be off, but they are just for explanation, it would take me to much time researching prices to be accurate. Your example is one trip=$1500. I say one trailer=$1500. So you are ahead by one trip. Second trip, you $1500, me $500. I can now take 2 more trips than you because it is going to cost less per trip. I am also using the the assumption that a trailer, while not required, will make a trip feasible, and therefore he will now make these trips.

I hope this explains it. You make some very valid points, from which I can't truly compare apples to apples, as I dont have this exact experience. I did assume there will be upkeep and yes time is money, but if it costs you some more time, but you are actually doing what you want, well, I think I can justify more time into the cost.

EDIT: I also forgot to mention, I agree with the take you had on the numbers. No trailer means no extra costs and a direct savings of $1500 and no wear and tear and so on. But I will use Teds example, and what I know I need personally, with a wife, kid, 2 large dogs and camping for more than a couple days, one ZJ wont cut it.

[Cody]

Ya, that makes sense, and like was said earlier when kids and significant others are in the mix, comfort features become necessities. If I find some dumb bag of guts crazy enough to shack up with me for the long haul, I'd probably spring for a flippac top for a 4 door taco. I just didn't like hauling the trailer around behind me when I had it....although it did fit my motorcycle nicely and made for a great yard trailer at times.

[K2]

Yeah, I didn't add yard work in. I was assuming more of a custom camping/wheeling application, but a versatile version would be nice.

I have to wait on a trailer, I just bought another ZJ for towing my trailer queen. My 4.0 now has 44s front and rear with 10" of lift, I am building the exo-cage with a sweet stinger.

You should add RTTs to your list, lol.

[Cody]

I like RTT's, they just aren't right for everyone. I wouldn't consider putting one on the roof of my ZJ, but i would consider putting one on the back of a taco or similar truck. But, again, it's not a priority for me right now so I don't see that in my near future.

[K2]

I thought of these the other day, and saw one today. I grabbed the name from it for searching only.

http://www.bulldogatv.com/index.php?...d=53&Itemid=63

I was think af the atv ones, but I think this utv one is better for your application. I didn't see a cost.

[BigDaveZJ]

They're not cheap. Most are well over $1,000. By the time I do that I might as well get a bigger trailer.

[K2]

I didn't look at prices. You may be able to build something similar yourself for way less. And depending on width you may just do the drive over the wheel well trick on one side. I know a trailready front bumper is 1g, but you can build one way cheaper. Just a thought.

[BigDaveZJ]

Problem solved. Sold the 16' trailer, bought a 26' trailer.

[Kauzi Zj]

Too bad, I was really enjoying this whole conversation, it gave me a chance to listen to multiple opinions, and ideas, so I can decide which way I might go...Thanks Dave, and Cody, and others, VERY valuable info in this thread!