View Poll Results: What $ amount for add'l fees would prohibit you from attending GSW?

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  • I already scrounge my couch for change to make the trip, can't afford anything else

    1 2.04%
  • $50

    9 18.37%
  • $100

    19 38.78%
  • Doesn't matter, I'm filthy stinking rich

    12 24.49%
  • Can't afford to go even if the event is free

    3 6.12%
  • I don't go to GSW because I don't like to have fun

    5 10.20%

Thread: GSW 2009 and additional costs

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  1. #1 GSW 2009 and additional costs 
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    As some of you may already know, we are facing some challenges for GSW 2009. The BLM is changing the requirements on organized groups in Moab. In the past, this is why we've limited the event to < 50 rigs. The number is now changing to 25. We'd rather not limit the event to 25 rigs, so we're looking at what needs to be done to make GSW 2009 work since I don't think any of us want to give up on it.

    So in the poll, please indicate your standing on additional costs for GSW. These costs are not lining the pockets of the planners at all, but going towards BLM fees, permits, and the necessary insurance that goes along with it.

    Please feel free to add comments as well.
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  2. #2 Re: GSW 2009 and additional costs 
    Senior Member AgitatedPancake's Avatar
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    ouch, that sucks. Is there any way we can actually divide into 2 seperate groups on the trails with 25 in each? Like *technically* call one GSW 09, then call the other like GSWeXtreme or something, so one group of like intermediates and one for the more difficult trails.

    I dunno just thinking out loud here, I don't really know how these things work in detail =P

    *edit* I marked $100 as being the prohibitive number. I mean if I had everything else planned out and set, I bet I could pull less than $100 together to go, and I KNOW its worth it.
    Last edited by AgitatedPancake; 09-30-2008 at 01:28 PM.
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  3. #3 Re: GSW 2009 and additional costs 
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    I'm not sure I could put a dollar amount on it. I think if we found an affordable way to do the banquet (Canyonlands By Night is a fun venue, but $$$), we could afford to go through the BLM bullshit.

    Honestly, I'd go no matter what.
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  4. #4 Re: GSW 2009 and additional costs 
    Senior Member GSSW Planner Pitch's Avatar
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    I'd echo the same sentiments as Jim.
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  5. #5 Re: GSW 2009 and additional costs 
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    I agree with others. Maybe we could save some money on the banquet (not trying to start that whole debate again, trust me I heard enough when I was at GSW08) but just trying to come up with some alternatives.

    I also like "splitting" the group up but like pancake said I am not sure how that really works out. I know that the only time we are a group of 50 is in the City Market parking lot and at the Banquest dinner, the rest of the time we are scattered about, so maybe it is not as big of an issue???
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  6. #6 Re: GSW 2009 and additional costs 
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    We rarely, if ever have 25 people on any one trail...in fact, never. As Dirk said, there can be up to 50 rigs at CM or the banquet. That's it.
    Jim Karlin
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  7. #7 Re: GSW 2009 and additional costs 
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    And those places are not governed by BLM
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  8. #8 Re: GSW 2009 and additional costs 
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    Guys - we've discussed all these options in the Organizer's forum. We are trying to find ways around or through this, but it is a distinct possibility that one way or another you'll have to pay money for GSW 2009. Quite frankly, we're trying to determine at what price point will we have to cancel future Grand Slam Wests because people can't/won't afford to attend.

    You can thank the eco-weenies for these policies. They are trying to strangle us off our own land.
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  9. #9 Re: GSW 2009 and additional costs 
    Senior Member Grand Slam West Planner Cody's Avatar
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    It's not the amount of people on each particular trail, it's the number of rigs in the "organized" group.

    Also, keep in mind that this would need to be paid weeks if not months in advance.
    Resident hater of tall lifts, dana 44's, 4.0's, stingers, exo cages, and ZJ tow rigs....and the word "overlanding"
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  10. #10 Re: GSW 2009 and additional costs 
    Senior Member ATL ZJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z View Post
    Guys - we've discussed all these options in the Organizer's forum. We are trying to find ways around or through this, but it is a distinct possibility that one way or another you'll have to pay money for GSW 2009. Quite frankly, we're trying to determine at what price point will we have to cancel future Grand Slam Wests because people can't/won't afford to attend.

    You can thank the eco-weenies for these policies. They are trying to strangle us off our own land.
    Well the way to figure out how much people will pay is to post the actual price and see what price the market will bear. Obviously as price rises demand decreases. I'm confused about the ambiguity of the additional fee. How much more is it going to cost if you have two groups? Why is there a poll? Are you in cohorts with the BLM to set said fee? Or are you just considering scaling down the banquet/tshirts/extras? ...Just trying to understand what's going on behind the curtain.

    As a somewhat objective 3rd party (never have attended GSW but have considered it) these are just a few observations. While I'm very glad that we don't have to comply with as strict of rules in this part of the country, it seems that a shrug-and-accept-the-worst attitude gets taken with this event. Surely there is a creative answer to this issue that would allow everyone who wants to attend still come.

    All of that said, people pay record-high fuel prices to go to GSW from the east coast. On the other hand, I bet there is someone in SLC that wouldn't even cough up an extra $10 to go. The magic number will be different for everyone.

    BTW, what's the reason that 2 groups won't work? Just call one "organized" group City Empires and the other GSW
    Last edited by ATL ZJ; 09-30-2008 at 03:28 PM.
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  11. #11 Re: GSW 2009 and additional costs 
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    Just curious....does anyone know how the "Blazer Bash" works? I've been the last 2 years with them and I didn't think they got a permit or anything? They usually have more attendees than GSW does from what I have seen... I guess I'm just wondering if anyone knows what they do because they seem to have a good system... Thinking out loud here
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  12. #12 Re: GSW 2009 and additional costs 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cody View Post
    It's not the amount of people on each particular trail, it's the number of rigs in the "organized" group.

    Also, keep in mind that this would need to be paid weeks if not months in advance.
    Thanks for the clarification Cody
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  13. #13 Re: GSW 2009 and additional costs 
    Senior Member Grand Slam West Planner Cody's Avatar
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    atl ZJ, we would love to tell you the price, but the price would be somewhat dependent on how many rigs. the more rigs, the less expensive per rig. I believe BLM permits would be about $15, and the required insurance policy would be a fixed cost for the most part and divided by the number of registrants. so, the best we can really say at this point is somewhere between $50 and $100.


    don't even get me started on the splitting of the two groups. Trust me, it's not an original idea and has been/is being addressed.
    Resident hater of tall lifts, dana 44's, 4.0's, stingers, exo cages, and ZJ tow rigs....and the word "overlanding"
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  14. #14 Re: GSW 2009 and additional costs 
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    I'd go either way......can i register now so i can be the first 25 to go?
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  15. #15 Re: GSW 2009 and additional costs 
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATL ZJ View Post
    I'm confused about the ambiguity of the additional fee. How much more is it going to cost if you have two groups? Why is there a poll? Are you in cohorts with the BLM to set said fee? Or are you just considering scaling down the banquet/tshirts/extras? ...Just trying to understand what's going on behind the curtain.
    There are 2 sets of fee's here. The first is by the BLM for using the (our own) land. It is $5/day/vehicle. So $15 more-or-less. The second is what is required to get the BLM permit. We need insurance. While the insurance provider can't give us a hard number quote this early in the game, it will be over a grand if 40 vehicles show up.

    This is in no relation to the banquet/tshirts/extras. The banquet/t-shirts have always been extra money, and the "extras" (give-aways at the banquet) has always been free.
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  16. #16 Re: GSW 2009 and additional costs 
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    Gotta love our litigious society - pretty soon you'll have to have insurance to pinch a loaf in a public crapper
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  17. #17 Re: GSW 2009 and additional costs 
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    So nobody knows how "Blazer Bash" works? Because I'm pretty certain they don't pay fees, and highly doubtful that they don't get the "insurance" or whatever.....

    I'll talk to my buddy later today that knows more about the Blazer Bash, I recall him saying it's a free event and I know more than 50 rigs showed up last year.
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  18. #18 Re: GSW 2009 and additional costs 
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    It's my understanding that BLM put the permit rules into effect around the end of June 2008.
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  19. #19 Re: GSW 2009 and additional costs 
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    I thought there were always permit rules if you had 50+ rigs and this year they dropped it to 25? Either way Blazer Bash happens in Aug-Sept each year and both '07 and '08 had 50+ rigs. I'm just curious as to how they do it (whether they get permits or what), because it seems like everyone is happy and it works out well.
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  20. #20 Re: GSW 2009 and additional costs 
    Senior Member Grand Slam West Planner Cody's Avatar
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    well, I'm sure they just hope that the BLM won't say anything, which is a pretty easy thing to do.

    We want to do things the right way, but we're trying to find the best and most logical 'right' way to handle things. Just because Blazer Bash gets away outside the system, as well as countless other organized groups (JU, PL4x4, RME, U4, Primedia--just to name a few that don't bother) doesn't mean it's right.
    Resident hater of tall lifts, dana 44's, 4.0's, stingers, exo cages, and ZJ tow rigs....and the word "overlanding"
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  21. #21 Re: GSW 2009 and additional costs 
    Senior Member Lifetime Supporter ZJ TINS's Avatar
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    Cory et al thanks for all the free support and time you all give, and will give.

    I'll pay whatever to go once a year just to keep my sanity. 1 day of travel costs me >$100 bucks, $100 more painful but the price you pay.
    Aside which I still have to give Kevin hell about his transfer case skid! (he he) That alone is worth $100.

    2 thoughts, you said you discussed the 2 groups idea. What exactly is the problem with this? Usually it's easier to bend the rules than change the rules. If we could get the exact language we may find a loophole, I might be able to get lawyer to look at this if the pertinent part is short (less than a page). I am talking a high powered corporate screw-you-into-the-ground peckerwood lawyer.

    Group is a loose term which defies definition. We might look at literally two names to separate us (GSW: north and south, blue and gray, hi and low, DD and extreme).
    Legally the right way is whatever works and doesn’t land you in jail (I did not say moral). Play the game to win.

    I am not rich, and one son is in college, but some of us are more equal than others.

    One thought is get a list of students or other who can't afford it and some of the rest of us pay a higher share. I am willing. I would rather pay a little more and get people there who love doing this than reducing the (real) group.
    Question: does this mean if we have to pay anyway the 50 cap is off?
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  22. #22 Re: GSW 2009 and additional costs 
    Senior Member Lifetime Supporter ZJ TINS's Avatar
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    OK officially the UTAH BLM website SUKS. I cannot find frackin anything!!!
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  23. #23 Re: GSW 2009 and additional costs 
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    I'm honestly surprised anybody can find anything at all on that POS.
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  24. #24 Re: GSW 2009 and additional costs 
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZJ TINS;214945[COLOR=black
    Question: does this mean if we have to pay anyway the 50 cap is off?[/COLOR]
    Ignoring the 50 cap, even the past couple years 50 people haven't been showing up. So with gas prices continue to be higher and higher each summer, I think fewer and fewer people will show up regardless of the 50 cap.
    -Ryan
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  25. #25 Re: GSW 2009 and additional costs 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cody View Post
    well, I'm sure they just hope that the BLM won't say anything, which is a pretty easy thing to do.

    We want to do things the right way, but we're trying to find the best and most logical 'right' way to handle things. Just because Blazer Bash gets away outside the system, as well as countless other organized groups (JU, PL4x4, RME, U4, Primedia--just to name a few that don't bother) doesn't mean it's right.
    Gotcha...I was wondering if that's what they did. In no way was I saying we should do that as well....my mom always said "two wrongs don't make a right!" I'm down to pay for GSW, last year was a ton of fun and I plan on going for years to come!
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