front 30 vs 44 question...for those that have done it

[5.9 ANDY]

i agree, a super built up 44 will cost more or the same as a 60 and it will still leave some to be desired, however.... think about the difference in weight between a 44 and a 60.

[J B]

I will eventually run a 44, and as I have said many times, it's not so much a strength upgrade as it is a reliability upgrade. Bearings, hubs, brakes, etc.

[ATL ZJ]

Who was breaking 30 parts, and swapped in a 44 and is no longer breaking parts?

That's a tough comparison since tire size usually changes at the same time, especially since bolt patterns aren't the same (unless you like the Rubicrap 44)... New tires and wheels generally accompany the swap.

alloy shafts don't count. for the money he was into the 44 adn alloys he could have been into a 60.

For rigs running mid sized tires like 36s and 37s, the 44 has an advantage in being so light weight. The 44's sweet spot is a narrow range in tire sizing where a d30 is too puny and the beef of a 60 isn't yet needed. I don't have much faith in OEM shafts, and would rather spend my weekends wheeling than working pit crew on my own rig.... Which is why alloy shafts DO count. An axle with 25 year old 1020 steel shafts and an axle with brand new 4340 shafts are two very different things, even if we call them by the same Dana model number.

Let's say you have a 44 under the front of your rig and start breaking stock shafts. You start pricing alloys. "Seven hundred dollars for a set? I could almost put a 60 under my Jeep for that..." No, you could have an axle that bolts into your 1979 F-350.

[zj95maxx]

Let's say you have a 44 under the front of your rig and start breaking stock shafts. You start pricing alloys. "Seven hundred dollars for a set? I could almost put a 60 under my Jeep for that..." No, you could have an axle that bolts into your 1979 F-350.

haha exactly what I was thinking. Multiply that 700 bucks by like 2 or 3 and you ALMOST have a 1979 dana 60 that can bolt into your jeep.(a quality built 60 that is)

[Cody]

Let's say you have a 44 under the front of your rig and start breaking stock shafts. You start pricing alloys. "Seven hundred dollars for a set? I could almost put a 60 under my Jeep for that..." No, you could have an axle that bolts into your 1979 F-350.

Oh, my bad. I didn't realize you could buy a 44 and it just bolted right into your ZJ.

Plus, I'm not talking about the cost of buying alloys vs. buying a 60. Of course at that point you already fucked up and it will cost you a lot more to go to a 60. So unless you're pulling magical 44 thats somehow bolt right into your ZJ with little to no work, then I don't see how a 60 is that much more expensive once you polish the 44. If you add up all the spare shafts I had to buy, then the alloys, lost time etc etc, I could buy 2 60's.

Look, the cost argument that people are dancing around is like this:

Lets say you pay 200 for your 44. Add 700 for the alloys, thats 900. You can buy a 60 for that right?

From that point, the only difference is whatever the price difference between 44 adn 60 gears, 44 and 60 lockers, and brackets/welding/instsall on the 60. I can't imagine 60 stuff is substantially more expensive than 44 stuff. Am I wrong?

Also, the odds of finding a 60 with a usable gear ratio are much better than with a 44.

As for sweet spot, I guess you're right. It just depends on what you want to run. A stock 44 will hold up to 35's just fine. It won't hold up to 37's (from experience) without alloys. So, if you're going to run 35's, the 44 is a viable option, if you're going bigger it's an accident waiting to happen unless you run alloys--in which case you could have just bought a 60 and been prepared to go bigger if you ever so desired, and have even BIGGER ball joints, bearings, knuckles, ring gear etc.

Of course, if you're only planning 35's, then why not just throw a fraction of the $$ earmarked for a front axle swap into alloy shafts which will be plenty strong, and spend the time and money you saved not swapping a front axle on a wheelin trip with some friends?

[CrawlerReady]

Who pays $700 for alloys?! I paid $350 shipped for my front set....

[Cody]

including joints? I think I paid about 600 for my set of yukons and bobby long joints.

[CrawlerReady]

I paid $350 shipped for Yukon inner/outer with full-circle clips and just your regular spicer joints. I'm trying to remember when I did this....maybe I had an account setup already....hmmm

[jsteves]

well that is the difference. Upgraded joints are $$$

[Cody]

Joints were as much or more than the shafts. CTM's are $460/pair.

longfields are 300/pair, and yukons are $330 I think.

[Krash80]

If someone swaps in a 44 with stock shafts and 760 joints, the only real advantage I see is getting manual hubs...other than that, it's pretty pointless. It's also relatively pointless to run chromoly shafts with stock-ish u-joints...please, let me spend 600$ on axleshafts just to have my cheap u-joints blow out so the yokes on my shafts slam together and get destroyed and then won't be covered under warranty...yay.

FWIW, on my 44, the only part I've blown up so far was a ring and pinion set. That was when the axle was open, and I figured I was being easier on it by not locking it. Now that it's locked, I've found that I'm much easier on everything because I don't have to romp up obstacles the way I used to. With Warns and Ox's, an Aussie, the outers being larger 8-lug, and being able to drive around most of the time in 2wd low w/ the front axle only being engaged for difficult obstacles, I don't foresee it giving me many problems in the future (if I ever drive my jeep again.) That said, if I were to do it over again, I'd build a 60 instead and be done with it.

-Ron-

Edit: I take back my first sentence. Thinking back to the constant D30 problems I had when my jeep was a DD, I was constantly wearing out hubs and ball joints as well as breaking shafts. My jeep always used to look like /--o-\ from the front...I did just as much damage and wear to front axles from aggressive driving on the street as I did on the trail. With the 44 I definitely got bigger ball joints, bigger and stronger hub bearings, much bigger brakes and calipers, thicker tubes, far stronger and more geometrically correct steering, and of course the manual hubs as previously stated. I can't say much for the ring and pinion strength upgrade since I've already gone through a set (that was supplied and installed by Currie) on the 44, but they are definitely bigger and stronger than D30 ones...perhaps still too weak for my application though since I went up 4" in tire size when finally tossing all the D30's for a 44. When I set-up the new gears, I put the pinion a little deeper into the ring gear to hopefully fight pinion deflection and possibly make the set withstand more pressure.

[Ted_Z]

IMHO a D44 has the following upgrades over a D30 (shafts/ujoints aside).

Bigger brakes
Manual hubs
No more unit bearings
High steering options

These are enough reasons for me to make the conversion worth it, whether or not there is any overall strength upgrade realized. But I think Cody's point is valid that if you are breaking D30 parts that your most efficient upgrade route would be a D60.

[CrawlerReady]

I've never had a problem with my stock joints.....the only reason I went alloy is because I kept popping the clips off my joints and the caps would work out and then I'd bust the ears off my shafts. Now that I have the full circle clips I haven't had a problem and I don't expect to.

Once I break a shaft due to the stock u-joints, then you guys can give me as much shit as you want about me running alloys with stock u-joints

[ATL ZJ]

Cody I think we both have the same experience/ perspective on this.. In the scenario I was looking at, the 44 was already installed in the rig. It's a whole different ballgame when you're starting from scratch. In that case, going straight to the 60 will often make sense... you have a built-in ability to upgrade the shafts without having to do a whole 'nother axle swap. Of course you could apply that same argument to the 44 for guys on medium sized tires too. And it could be said for the d30, too, which you already said, "just throw a fraction of the $$ earmarked for a front axle swap into alloy shafts..."

Axle selection all depends on what size tire you want to be running later, as much as what size you want today. Take this from a guy who has both a built 44 and a 60 with alloys.

...before this dead horse turns into glue, here's something I think we'd all mostly agree on:

30"-33": run a dana 30
33-35": 30 (prob with alloys) or 44
35-37": 44 with alloys (or 60?)
38"+: 60

[cLAYH]

I only ever ran 31 on the D30 and I was going thru unit bearings like crazy and the brakes were marginal at best. When I wanted I to go a 36" tire I didn't even consider keeping the D30. Just to clarify I never had any shafts break of ring pinion/problems on either the D30 or D44. Both had stock shafts. I always ran high quality spicer "snaptite" u-joints. On my other 4X4s anytime I had a shaft problem is was from a u-joint failing, either breaking or spitting out the retaining ring.

MY reasons for going to a D44 were:

-I had 75% of the pieces laying around and can fab so for me is was cheaper than polishing a D30
-more choices in wheel bolt pattern
-bigger brakes
-wider stance, this was important to me, my axles now have a 65" WMS, extra stability but not too wide for any regular Jeep trail
-lower gear ratios(I went 5.38s)
-no unit bearings
-manual hubs

More reasons:
-heavier duty housing and gears
-more aftermarket support(hi steer, lockers, shafts, etc)
-bigger ball joints

I started out using the stock "T" steering and stock shafts as my budget had ran out. Very quickly the steering got upgraded(Chevy 1 ton TREs and then Hi steer). But after 5 years I'm still running the stock shafts. I'm not super hard on my rig and don't so much rock crawling(did Moab once) and the first 4 years that D44 was in my XJ with a 4.0. We'll see how that D44 likes the weight and V8 HP of the new ZJ its under.

[AprilzWarrior]

Personally speaking here.

I think its all relative. If you have access to 44s or 60s that would make you chose one or the other, your level of fab skills, time to take on such a swap, that fact of most of our Jeep are our DDs (huge factor).


I went from the D30 to Custom Built Solid HP60 King Pin. Choice was clear, I broke EVERYTHING on the 30 at least 3 times even Ball Joints. I knew a D44 would not live though what I was wanting to throw at it.

In the beginnging I only wanted to run 39.5"s ended up with the 42"s, I have no regret building my 60, I can rail on it unrelentlessly. In the end I spent 4K+ (maybe closer to 5K) and wont be working on that axle anytime soon. The rear 14bolt is a no brainer, cheap to build, bombproof (my style). All in all I feel ahead of the game when Im wheeling, less chance of brake downs/repair, more site seeing and wheeling*.


The D44 shafts, Ball Joints & Ring and Pinon was the reason I chose NOT to run it. Even though they are everywhere in NorCal for sale cheap. Last thing I wanted was more trail wrenching.




*beer drinking

[death-mobile]

Is it a better idea and/or a cheaper idea to build a D44 front and a D44 rear for a WJ, or to buy the D44's that are already built on IronRock's site?

I don't plan on running more than 33's for quite some time. And I'm very poor...so 3K and 2K for axles sucks.

[Cody]

for 33's I would spend the $5000 on a set of shafts for each axle, and the rest on kick ass wheelin trips.

[death-mobile]

I was thinking the same thing. To adapt to keep abs and build up axles, it would take a lot of time, work, and a bit of loot. My gf drives it daily, so downtime and streetability is an issue.