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Zero
08-11-2006, 02:30 PM
Hey guys... I'm working towards getting a tow rig / ZJ-recovery truck and know very little about diesels, so I figured a few of you would be able to point me in the right direction. I'm not trying start a pissing contest that seems to be going around on the entire internet, but I'm thinking either a Dodge 3500 or a Ford F350, single rear wheel, new. From what I've read, both are great trucks, but the Dodge's straight 6 Cummins is better than Ford's International V8 diesel, but the Ford is a better truck than the Dodge. Anyone have any experience with a comparison of the newer trucks? I want something with that loud turbo whine! I love that big rig sound. It will spend 1/3 of its time towing and the rest mostly long trips & street duty, with some wheelin' here or there.

I'm stuck on the auto or manual decision. I have no problem with manual but I prefer an auto as long as it doesn't cause problems down the line, especially if I add something like a Banks kit at some point. Also, diesels in general, are there any things I should know, like, for winter operation (in Maine @ 0F to 20F on the coldest days), or summer (in the mid-atlantic @ 100F with high humidity)?

Is it bad that I want to modify the suspension and tires already? :D Why do a lot of quality aftermarket suspensions (like Superlift) generally lift the rear 2" less than the front? I don't know why I can't just be satisfied with a 'stock' vehicle... ;-)

Feel free to throw your $.02 out there, I appreciate any advice on this, as I know very little about these trucks.

J B
08-11-2006, 02:36 PM
If you go with a Dodge, I wouldn't get an auto, simply because Chrysler can't build a transmission that will reliably last. The manual would be great though.

As far as lifting 2" less in the rear than the front, those trucks are already higher in the back, since they're really designed to be driven loaded. Lifting the front 2" more than the rear level the truck out.

OverkillZJ
08-11-2006, 02:59 PM
He's absolutely right about dodge + auto's.

I'm not a diesel expert by any means, but of my friends towing Jeeps, the Chevy/GMC Duramax just seems to have the least problems and I've taken a liking to it more than the others.

JeepinHank
08-11-2006, 03:04 PM
I seriously suggest you DON'T lift your tow rig. You kill the towing capabilities, and are trying to make it into something its not.

I have a 2001 F-250 - crew cab, 4x4, 7.3L PSD, and an auto. I think its a great truck. Never really had a problem with it in the 30K miles I've put on it (92K total miles). Unlike a lot of folks, I don't have a problem with the Dodges or the Chevys. If you get a Ford - get the 7.3 if you can. I don't know if they're still available or not. The Powerstroke is an International motor, and it works. I've been told they're still working the bugs out of the 6.0.

I think any of the big 3 medium duty (3/4 or 1 ton) trucks will be great. Don't fool yourself into thinking its cheaper (long run or other wise) Maintanence is higher, fuel costs more in my area, and a lot of gas stations here don't sell diesel. That said, my mileage it much better compared to a gasser with comperable towing capabilities, and I expect it to last me at least 300k miles.

J B
08-11-2006, 03:12 PM
The older 7.3L is a dog compared to the newer 6.0L diesel though.....

Since he's buying new, it's not an option for him anyway.

OverkillZJ
08-11-2006, 03:14 PM
I don't know about reliability, but the 6.0 runs with something like 2x the boost, giving it a hell of a lot more power with less consumption and at a lower RPM...

Zero
08-11-2006, 04:41 PM
Hey, thanks for all the advice so far guys! Right-on about the Dodge auto tranny. I've been reading about that left and right. Glad to hear the Ford auto isn't as problematic for you, JeepinHank.

I'm just not a fan of the GMC/Chevy trucks. I'm not saying there is anything at all wrong with them, but they just don't catch my attention like the Dodge or Ford.

I realize diesels are a more costly option, (long run and maintenance), but I'm in it more for the long term. I get attached to my vehicles and would love a truck that lasts 300K-mi or more. My ZJ has served me for almost 11 years, and it's about time I chop it up and get out on the trails with you guys! :D


I seriously suggest you DON'T lift your tow rig. You kill the towing capabilities, and are trying to make it into something its not.


About lifting it.... Just to clear that up, I don't intend to lift my tow rig the standard 8, 12, or 15 inches some of these guys do, and throwing on 40's or anything. I was only implying a mild lift and tires (as far as trucks this size go), after I break it in and have driven it for quite some time. But I appreciate the recommendation.
It's funny.... living in southern California, I honestly don't think I've SEEN a Ford (or any other truck) on anything less than 35's with a 4" lift or so.

I wonder if more gas stations will start carrying diesel with all of the newer style cars coming out with diesel engines. (Jeep, etc...) Reading a little online, it really seems that more cars will start moving to the more efficient diesel technology as it progresses.

cwm
08-11-2006, 04:55 PM
Are you looking to buy new or used?
In my buiness
www.qualitytowing.com
We have tried them all and stick with the Ford because the brakes suspension and trany last longer for stop and go towing. the 7.3 and 6.0 are problematic but still good motors.
You cannot beat the Cummins motor, but if your going to juice it up more than a 150 to 200 more HP you will fry the Auto trans! You can replace the Auto with an ATS trany for about $5000.00 that will take anything you can throw at it. The Dodge Manual box is pretty strong.
The Duramax is a Fuel hog!!! It makes good power is quite and the trans breaking Feature is nice when towing. I borrowed my buddies to go to GSW and from Las Vegas to Moab and back towing my ZJ I used about $350.00 in Fuel best milage I got was 11MPG.
If I was to chose a truck for towing it would be the Dodge for me.

Zero
08-11-2006, 05:22 PM
Are you looking to buy new or used?
In my buiness
www.qualitytowing.com
We have tried them all and stick with the Ford because the brakes suspension and trany last longer for stop and go towing. the 7.3 and 6.0 are problematic but still good motors.
You cannot beat the Cummins motor, but if your going to juice it up more than a 150 to 200 more HP you will fry the Auto trans!

I'm looking for a new one. I've had two tow truck guys that have driven different brands tell me how much they love their Fords, which to me means a lot because they're in them all day and have the most experience with them.

As for adding some power, I was looking at a Banks kit that adds 138hp and 231 lb-ft of "continuous, useable power" to the 6.0 Ford, so I guess I'm wondering if the Ford auto can stand up to that. I won't be tooling around and overly abusive with it, but I like the idea of being able to dial in more power if needed for specific situations.

JeepinHank
08-11-2006, 05:31 PM
About lifting it.... Just to clear that up, I don't intend to lift my tow rig the standard 8, 12, or 15 inches some of these guys do, and throwing on 40's or anything. I was only implying a mild lift and tires (as far as trucks this size go), after I break it in and have driven it for quite some time. But I appreciate the recommendation.
It's funny.... living in southern California, I honestly don't think I've SEEN a Ford (or any other truck) on anything less than 35's with a 4" lift or so.

I wonder if more gas stations will start carrying diesel with all of the newer style cars coming out with diesel engines. (Jeep, etc...) Reading a little online, it really seems that more cars will start moving to the more efficient diesel technology as it progresses.

OK that clears that up for me.... I just hate to see a perfectly good tow rig get lifted to the point of not being able to tow. Hell, I want to go up a size or two when my current tires wear out, so I can't fault you for wanting a "mild" lift. :D

Zero
08-11-2006, 06:01 PM
OK that clears that up for me.... I just hate to see a perfectly good tow rig get lifted to the point of not being able to tow. Hell, I want to go up a size or two when my current tires wear out, so I can't fault you for wanting a "mild" lift. :D

Out of curiosity, what would you limit the tire size and lift to, for towing a ZJ. Stock on an F350 is a 33" I believe (275/70/R18). I was thinking max of a 35" or 37" with minimal lift to fit that would be ok. I'd definitely do it right. I'm not about to half ass it with shitty parts or incomplete kits.

ProjectZJOM617T
08-11-2006, 06:56 PM
Alot about the dodge auto depends on which transmission it is and what year..

You can expect drastic improvements as mercedes HD commercial tech trickles into the ram drivetrain..

nate
08-11-2006, 08:36 PM
Well I've been driving diesel trucks for a few years...

I don't have a whole lot of seat time with the Duramax. We have an 05 at work, and it is a complete dog... but that could just be that truck in particular.

Fords... the 7.3 is a fine engine, the 6.0.... I would NEVER consider. WAY too many issues with that engine right now.

Cummins... great engine. The 24 valves have issues with the lift pumps... when the pump dies, it slowly kills the injection pump. Not a huge deal to put a fuel pressure guage or a better pump though.
Also the "Killer dowel pin" which is a pin in the timing cover that can walk out and fall into the timing gears. Fairly easy and cheap to fix.... if caught before it falls out.


I have a 98 Ram 2500. It's got 165,000 miles. The motor runs fine, I've done no major work other than replacing a couple seals really.

I have an auto, and yep... unless you get an expensive transmission from a shop that does diesel trannys, they don't last super long. Stock one lasted about 100,000 miles.


As for lifting it, well my truck has a leveling kit, just 2" in the front and I run 315/75/16s, which measure to a 35x12.5 roughly. They fit the truck just fine. I had 3.55 gears, and it sucked towing the Jeep, so I put 4.10s in there, and it's not bad.

ProjectZJOM617T
08-11-2006, 09:33 PM
http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/showthread.php?t=98179&page=2&pp=15



have both an auto and 6spd 04 year models. My first D/C products ever even ridden in.

The auto is my daily driver and pulls a backhoe about 45% the time. Pretty tough going up regular overpasses; but flat ground is great.

The 6spd is about 50/50 - empty/dozer. It pulls with no issue at all.
Both getting about 16.2 mpg empty. I don't even care loaded.
I have an 03 7.3 powerstroke also and love it too. But its totally different.

Wouldn't trade my Cummins away for a free Ferd now.
My only failure has been 1 single lift pump on the Auto. That's it and its was 105k miles.

So no complaints here. All Stock.


I would search around. Some sites have objective comparisons between the different rigs available. IMHO I'd stick with a cummins and a 48RE automatic.. The 47RE was getting closer to the right fix but the 48RE hit it on the nose.

Its a ways off but in the future they will have CVT hydrostatic transmissions...

OverkillZJ
08-11-2006, 09:46 PM
I can't imagine how in the world you only got 11 MPG towing with a Duramax.... My 6.5 turbo beats that by far, and the Duramax usually kicks my ass mileage wise towing.

Zero
08-11-2006, 10:38 PM
As if picking a new truck weren't time consuming enough, whats this I hear about ULSD? Apparently, Ford is releasing a 6.4L diesel titled an '08, in January '07 which I'm sure will have initial bugs. (Official '07s are from now until Dec 31st.) The new 6.4 uses only ULSD (ultra low sulfer diesel). Supposedly all diesel will have been switched to this new type by January 1st 07? Does this affect current trucks? The NEW engine is said to ONLY be able to run on the ULSD stuff... but is ULSD backwards compatible, so to speak, with todays trucks, without modification or performance loss? Or is all of this just a big rumor? I better get one before the switch I guess, seeing as how the newest 6.0's supposedly have most of thier demons worked out and the '08 actually requires cab-removal for major repairs.

Quote from another forum:
All the on road diesel fuel available by Jan. of 2007 will be ULSD. Because of the way the fuel distribution and storage systems work in the United States, it will probably be difficult to even find Off Road fuel that is not ULSD by spring of 2007.


Here are links to the articles and another forum...
ULSD thing...
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/501416-what-is-everyone-going-to-do.html
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/495501-wall-street-journal-08-launch-delayed-3-months-2.html

'08 article
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/GeneralFuture/articleId=116323#2

6.4L forum
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/forum169/

In case you couldn't tell, I'm leaning toward the Ford....
LOL, and can you tell I had the day off with nothing to do??? :D

nate
08-11-2006, 11:40 PM
Anything 07 and up can't run on LSD diesel. It would be like running leaded gas on now a days cars... would ruin the catalytic convertor. I guess whatever is in the cat gets messed up from sulphur.

BUT, by the end of the year, all the stations are suppose to be ULSD at the pumps... actually they are right now, but they are phasing out LSD so it's not a true ULSD since it's getting blended.

The older trucks can run on whatever, LSD or ULSD... hell I pour my waste oil in my truck's tank.... helps to lube and it's free fuel.

All I have to say about Ford is stay away from the 6.0L. I thought it was a great engine when it first came out... lots more power than the 7.3L, but so many people have had trouble with that engine, it's not even funny.

I think the new 08 Ford has the FUGLIEST headlight setup. It ranks right there with the Pontiac Asstec and Dodge Durango for fugly IMO.



As for fuel mileage, gas vs. diesel truck cost, etc... that's a hard one.

If your just using the truck as a daily driver, hauling maybe groceries... not worth it. Parts are more, fuel is more... basically more everything costs more. You'll get better fuel mileage, but not a ton better. My truck gets around 16 empty and 14-15 towing my Jeep/trailer (~8000lbs). The best I ever got was 18.47 not that long ago. Doing 80mph on the highway for the whole tank of all things.

If your searching the forums or google searches with people claiming way high mileage numbers... they are lying. If you drive like a grandpa, with a 2wd truck, you can squeeze mileage #s in the low 20s....
The other day a guy I work with claimed his wife's diesel Excursion gets 30-35 mpg while pulling a trailer doing 75-80mph... and some people belived him! I just laughed a bit and walked away... I couldn't stand his b/s and stupidness.

BTW... diesel fuel around here is 3.39-3.74... while gas is 2.95-3.09 for regular.

ProjectZJOM617T
08-12-2006, 12:03 AM
Most interesting ford..

http://www.newtechspy.com/articles06/hydraulichybrid.html


There are going to be some major changes in the next few years..

You might be seing eaton hydraulic systems in as many placess as NVG cases..

You might see mecredes diesels in rams..

dasVettemeister
08-12-2006, 05:30 AM
The older 7.3L is a dog compared to the newer 6.0L diesel though.....

Since he's buying new, it's not an option for him anyway.

Interesting. I've heard there's a marginal difference in towing power, but a huge disparity in mileage. Supposedly the 6.0 is getting piss-poor fuel mileage.

Where is Dr. Boost? He needs to check in on this subject.

ProjectZJOM617T
08-12-2006, 06:12 AM
Interesting. I've heard there's a marginal difference in towing power, but a huge disparity in mileage. Supposedly the 6.0 is getting piss-poor fuel mileage.

Where is Dr. Boost? He needs to check in on this subject.

Simple the 6.0 makes more power.. Esp down low due to VGT.. Power comes from fuel...

I think people are using more than enough throttle and the milage is suffering...

Around town I have yet to see any newer turbodiesel driver do anything but can it at lights..

Off topic.
Back when I had a solid 10sec awd car with slips I had PSD's and CTD's rev at lights... :smt018 Nice trucks but 2wd + 3/4 ton weight even with bombed engine is no match for AWD at 2800# with 650hp on tap... I was running 1680cc injectors and E85 since it cost about a dollar less than the same octane in gasoline at the time..

These days I am looking for enough snap to get by in the rat race but no hp records.. Combined with MPG and environmental responsibility..

Looking at cars to get parts for my swap I have noticed a few nice mercedes TDs in need of minor repairs.. Mostly due to the fact that places charge more for diesel work and car ppl arent as up on DIY diesel stuff... I might be rolling in a big mint Mercedes diesel car as a summer DD and a swapped to diesel SUV the rest of the time...

FWIW on a budget get the old mechanical P1700 pump 12V CTD with a manual trans... Then trade it later on one of the next generation rigs that are coming.. I want a FS diesel but even if I won the lottery I would hold out when I look at what is coming down the pipe tech wise..

ZJZJ
08-14-2006, 10:25 AM
Double check your intent to go with the 3500 single rear wheel. I went that route, not expecting to tow anything huge. Then I got a deal on a 37' gooseneck car hauler. Now I kick myself for not getting the dually with the 6-shooter. The auto is nice, but the manual is much better for towing. Pulling a 36' enclosed trailer back from Texas I grossed just under 28,000 pounds. Getting it all rolling with O/D off was still a bit of a challenge. Having the manual would have made it much easier to choose the gear I wanted. I've been extremely happy with my CTD though. At 74,000 miles, I have had only 2 issues. The A/C stopped working due to a loose wire and a brake caliper froze up on me. No engine or tranny issues at all. Get the gauges and learn what the numbers mean. Do the maintenance yourself and have your oil analyzed so you know what is going on with your very expensive motor. A $20 oil analysis vs. a $12-15k motor is a good trade-off in my book. Hoping for a good 300-400k miles out of mine. Of course, that will require a new transmission at some point I'm sure...

JOE
08-21-2006, 10:06 PM
I think all 3 trucks are great and you really can't go wrong.....but no matter what, when you bump up the power, it is just a spiral effect of other things to upgrade.

My buddy tows almost everyday with a 6" lifted durmax w/35's and it drives amazingly well, IMO.

On my way down to Tellico for GSSE a few weeks ago, going between 78 and 85 mph I ended up averaging around 14 mpg which I am totally happy with. That is before factoring in for my tire size difference.

I wouldn't hesitate for a minute to lift and run 35's or 37's on a tow rig.

nate
08-21-2006, 11:07 PM
You need 6" of lift on a Duramax to fit 35s? I fit 35s on my truck with a leveling kit (2" lift in the front)

Zero
08-22-2006, 01:53 AM
I wouldn't hesitate for a minute to lift and run 35's or 37's on a tow rig.

Right-on... I was thinking a MAX of 6" and 37's, with some new gears. Numerically it seems like a lot, but these trucks are just SO much bigger than the jeep... just kinda funny I guess, I dunno.

I probably won't be getting anything for a month or two, but I wanted to have my info straight for when the time comes. Thanks for all the input guys, it helped a lot.

Cody
08-22-2006, 02:30 AM
If your searching the forums or google searches with people claiming way high mileage numbers... they are lying. If you drive like a grandpa, with a 2wd truck, you can squeeze mileage #s in the low 20s....
T

on my 2500 mile road trip I averaged 22 mpg loaded with just camping gear. I average between 15-18 mixed driving and about the same towing a 6000 lb trailer in my 99 2500 Cummins @ about 75 mph. Trucks is stock except for 265 tires.

I did the tranny last year at 160k miles. I'm not sure if it's the first or second time ti's been done. Other than that, and the starter (20 dollar rebuild) I've had zero problems in the last 2.5 years.

Cody

Krash80
08-22-2006, 02:42 AM
Where is Dr. Boost? He needs to check in on this subject.

I think his fuel economy estimates that he's bragged about are a bit skewed. When I took that truck to Moab I hardly got better than 10-11 mpg...which really sucked in that thing cause it only has a 20-something gallon tank so we literally had to fill up every couple hundred miles (to others reading this is a 7.3 Ford w/ a 5" straight pipe and a 100 hp boost from a programmer). If I had my choice between my truck and his truck to use for another trip like that, I'd honestly take mine with the V-10 over his diesel....not because of the motor though, but because my longbed is WAAAY more stable for towing than his shortbed.

JOE
08-23-2006, 08:06 AM
Right-on... I was thinking a MAX of 6" and 37's, with some new gears. Numerically it seems like a lot, but these trucks are just SO much bigger than the jeep... just kinda funny I guess, I dunno.

I probably won't be getting anything for a month or two, but I wanted to have my info straight for when the time comes. Thanks for all the input guys, it helped a lot.

If you decide to look into the duramax more, check out www.dieselplace.com, lots of good information on there.

JOE
08-23-2006, 08:07 AM
You need 6" of lift on a Duramax to fit 35s? I fit 35s on my truck with a leveling kit (2" lift in the front)

no, not really.......with a 6" lift you can fit 37's. He just did 35's so he could still fit in his garage, fit in the automatic carwash, etc..... lol

Pearce
08-23-2006, 12:49 PM
The newer Dodge trannys are much better than the old ones untill you start to add more HP. I've had no issues with mine other than a loose wire connection totaly unrelated to the trannys internal workings.

The older diesels will get better mileage than the newer ones becuase of the emission standards now. For example the new Cummins motor is going from 5.9 to 6.7 (or 6.something). Its getting bigger but its going to have about the same HP, why, to compensate for emissions. But for the first time in 40,000 miles I got a solid 14mpg from Atlanta to Tellico and back. We'll see how it does next week out to Moab. I belive they also already have the ULS diesel out that way so I can see how that does too.

All three are good trucks. Time and time again I read on the dodge forum the perfect truck would be Cummins motor, Ford frame and body, Allison tranny. Personally I just like the Dodge truck better.

Now you could wait to see what Nissan and Toyata come out with soon in the 3/4 ton......

Oh, also if I knew what I do now about tow capcities and legaly hauling I would have got the SRW 3500 for the extra $500 :cool: The extra cargo capacity of the 3500 is what makes towing a goose neck with heavy loads more legal than the 2500. All the rest of the ratings are the same.

nate
08-23-2006, 08:11 PM
Not bad. 2wd or 4wd?

My truck has averaged 16mpg since I bought it.. (I keep track). The best tank was doing 80 mph all highway with an empty truck and I got 18.47mpg.
Worst was pulling my Jeep/trailer to Fairbanks, I got ~14.5.

ULSD is out just about everywhere. It needs to be in place by 1 Oct I think. I know what's in the pumps now is a mix of LSD and ULSD since they aren't going to suck all the LSD out and just put ULSD.

I'd be happy if diesel wasn't $3.55-$3.73 a gallon here, where gas is right around $3 a gallon.


on my 2500 mile road trip I averaged 22 mpg loaded with just camping gear. I average between 15-18 mixed driving and about the same towing a 6000 lb trailer in my 99 2500 Cummins @ about 75 mph. Trucks is stock except for 265 tires.

I did the tranny last year at 160k miles. I'm not sure if it's the first or second time ti's been done. Other than that, and the starter (20 dollar rebuild) I've had zero problems in the last 2.5 years.

Cody

Mtn WJ
08-23-2006, 11:47 PM
Depending on how soon your ready to buy the truck and if you go Ford you might want to find out when the 6.4 is coming out. Supposed to be a killer set up and will also be a IH motor.

8WR_ZJ
08-24-2006, 10:34 AM
my uncle has a 00 ram that just clicked 400,000 miles on it. 2500 long bed manual. he uses it to pull a 34' horse trailer w/ living quaters and tack room. he daughters are into the rodeo thing and they pretty much travel all the time. He changed the clutch, through out bearing..... about 50,000 ago. overall its a great truck. still pulls great, gets decent mileage around 17. i still think all three are great trucks. and if had to get one it would problay be the ford. just my thoughts.

H3RESQ
09-14-2006, 10:17 PM
Figured I'd give one more opinion. My Uncle had a Dodge(0 problems), wife made him sell it cause of noise. He then bought a Duramax. He has had many fuel issues with this truck. I borrowed it 3 times and had it break down on me twice.(made a picture of my buddys dodge towing it to the dealer for him.)
My buddy Kevin had 98 dodge. he bombed it and had the stock auto go out(imagine that.). He then bought a ford (6.0)manual and of course bombed it. manual tranny blew up. he got that fixed and then has had lots of oil leaks.(bitchin looking truck though).
My buddy Brandon has a 2002 dodge dually(6sp). It's bone stock except an AIR BRAKE. Only problem he's had is the front ball joints.
I've had an Auto 97 dodge with 0 problems and an 5sp 01 dodge, again no problems.
I think you wanting a Dodge or Ford is on the right track. I think over all your going to have better luck with the Dodge. You'll probably pick up more chicks in the Ford though. The just have a better looking truck.

Zero
09-14-2006, 10:54 PM
The just have a better looking truck.

Yeah, I really love the look of the ford... I'm TRYING to wait to see how the new 6.4 turns out, with the new common rail fuel setup, piezo injectors, & sequential turbos. On one hand it seems interesting, but on the other, its really just a response to the new regulations starting 1/07. Its almost as if they're (all of the diesel manufacturers) fighting to get the performance back from all of the restrictive emissions. Although, I guess if reliablility goes up and mileage doesn't drop, no harm - no foul. Too bad the new headlights look incredibly ugly. Interior looks cool though. Like the current F150.

Thanks everybody for all of the input! I'll post a pic of whatever mess I get myself into! :rolleyes:

jml
09-15-2016, 10:06 AM
Cummins hands down...twice on sunday. Amazing towing power. We use cummins diesel for all our towing fleet.
Vegas Towing Service (http://vegastowingservice.com)
Owner
Jason L

BigDaveZJ
09-15-2016, 10:27 AM
Bumping a 10 yr old thread to pimp your towing business??