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Skyline
06-14-2006, 06:27 PM
Hi guys;

I think this site is great. I've learned a lot by just reading along, so thanks to all you folks. While I just recently started to upgrade my ZJ, I've owned Jeeps for 17 years, and always wheeled them pretty hard. A recent trip to Paragon opened my eyes as to how much fun I could have by taking it to the next level, and I'm working on the next step now.

Starting Point:
http://www.members.aol.com/bavariancoupe/Jeep1.jpg



I'm working on lifting to 4.5", but on a budget. By budget I don't mean hockey pucks on all corners, but I'd love to try to get some used (but not destroyed) parts if possible. I have my front RE spings, MX6 shocks and JKS lower rear arms on order. (BTW you can't beat the special 4wheelparts.com is running on the MX6 shocks; under $200 shipped for 4). Those JKS rear arms cost a lot, but I moved them up the priority list as the stock ones are shot. I'm planning on a front to rear swap. I have my Kevins sliders already mounted.

Any of you guys with the nice long arm kits have any good quality adjustable arms, track bars, sway bar discos that you've outgrown, and would like to see them go to a good home where they will be wheeled hard, send me a PM. :smt100

After I get the lift sorted out with all adjustable arms, and some 33's mounted (I'm not hesitant to trim), my future plans include tough axle shafts front and rear (but staying with the 30/44 combo for now), 4.56 gears, lockers and a 242. Maybe a heavy duty set of bumpers. I love the look of the Bushwacker flares on the ZJ so those will probably be the last step. My time frame for completion of the whole project is about 4-5 months if I have to buy everything new, but a lot quicker if I can get some used items. Then I will wheel it for a good time like that untill my courage and skill catches up to the vehicle.

Thanks
Steve

nate
06-14-2006, 08:45 PM
I hate to say this, but building a rig with little money is not very easy. I have spent about $15k on my Jeep, not counting the 16k purchase price.... now that is money spent over 4 years and a few setups and tire selections, so I can't say I have that much $$ in it right now. Even still I do have some ugly credit card debt to show for it.

Keep an eye on the For sale boards. On here, NAGCA.com and Jeepsunlimited.com. If you have some fab skills, it's often cheaper to make it yourself than buy it as well.

Skyline
06-14-2006, 08:51 PM
The price on those shocks doesn't sound like that great of a deal to me. I paid $45 a shock for the Skyjackers on my ZJ. Shoot even the bling Bilstien 5100s on my pickup were only ~ $75 a shock.

I'm just saying that since you are on a tight budget, so you might be able to save some $$.
Well given that I have heard nothing but good things about the MX6's, $42 per shock seemed pretty good to me.

Rubber Chuck
06-14-2006, 09:21 PM
Hi Steve.....How's it going? Your jeep did just fine on the level 2 trails...you actually having me thinking about bringing my wife's stock 96 back out there.

I have a couple suggestions for you....
Front and Rear adjustable trac bars....Stay away from the rear add-on bracket.....I have seen a couple of the stock trac bar brackets get ripped offthe axle from the added stress those brackets put on.
I as well as others on this board would probably recommend Kevin's trac bar conversion for the front.
I have a Rubicon Express adjustable trac bar on the rear of my ZJ ($160 IIRC) and a cheap PORC bar on the front ($134 IIRC). I am very happy w/ the rear bar...not so happy w/ the front. I am more then likely gonna spring for Kevin's kit for the front in the next month....I have to drive to West Virginia at the end of July and will feel alot more comfortable w/ Kevin's set-up for the 8 hour drive (each way).

The other recommendation would be sway bar disconnects( I think I mentioned that when I saw you at paragon???) I am putting a front sway bar back on my jeep and will be getting JKS discos for it. Yes they are a little pricey.....but I can get a pretty good price on them...and they are awesome.

When are you coming back to paragon??? Keep an eye on Slacker if you want to come down for a non-monthly ride.
TTYL

Skyline
06-14-2006, 09:47 PM
Hi Steve.....How's it going? Your jeep did just fine on the level 2 trails...you actually having me thinking about bringing my wife's stock 96 back out there.

I have a couple suggestions for you....
Front and Rear adjustable trac bars....Stay away from the rear add-on bracket.....I have seen a couple of the stock trac bar brackets get ripped offthe axle from the added stress those brackets put on.
I as well as others on this board would probably recommend Kevin's trac bar conversion for the front.
I have a Rubicon Express adjustable trac bar on the rear of my ZJ ($160 IIRC) and a cheap PORC bar on the front ($134 IIRC). I am very happy w/ the rear bar...not so happy w/ the front. I am more then likely gonna spring for Kevin's kit for the front in the next month....I have to drive to West Virginia at the end of July and will feel alot more comfortable w/ Kevin's set-up for the 8 hour drive (each way).

The other recommendation would be sway bar disconnects( I think I mentioned that when I saw you at paragon???) I am putting a front sway bar back on my jeep and will be getting JKS discos for it. Yes they are a little pricey.....but I can get a pretty good price on them...and they are awesome.

When are you coming back to paragon??? Keep an eye on Slacker if you want to come down for a non-monthly ride.
TTYL
Hey Chuck;

I'll be back at Paragon for the 7/1, 7/2 weekend ride, and I will still be at stock height. I hear all your suggestions. I know I need track bars with the lift; and definately an adjustable rear, (no bracket). Actually the rear is a no-brainer as my stock one has 148k on it. I will probably get a JKS for the front and add Kevins converion at a later date. I also know I need longer brake lines and probably bump stop extensions.

As much as I'd like to have disconnects for 7/1, I need to buy them for the height of the lift. So even if I got them now, I can't use them untill I've collected all the pieces for the lift. I guess I'll just bring some sockets and unbolt the stock bar in the parking lot for now.

Finally, if you you have any inside track to get good prices on JKS stuff, I'd love to hear about it.
Steve

Rubber Chuck
06-14-2006, 09:54 PM
What else do you need JKS wise???? I see you already have your rear lower arms on order???

As far as brake lines are concerned......I had no issues in the back when I put my RE 4.5" springs in. The front hoses were replaced with stock hoses for a 95 YJ....they are plenty long enough.....I can get you part number (Raybestos) tomorrow.

Skyline
06-14-2006, 10:10 PM
What else do you need JKS wise???? I see you already have your rear lower arms on order???



Well most important are the track bars. But I will also eventually need the other 6 arms plus discos. Assuming you're going to be at the 7/1 run, I'll catch up to you there. I plan on camping there this time, and wheeling both days.

One other question: Do I need to get discos for the rear sway bar as well, or just extensions? Or can I just leave the stock links?


Steve

nate
06-14-2006, 11:47 PM
I thought I edited that? I did my math wrong.. I was thinking they were $100 a shock... I dunno what the hell I was thinking. haha.

I don't think I'd bother with an adjustable rear trackbar. Cut your stock bar and extend it instead. It's 1" OD, so just get some 1" ID tube.


Well given that I have heard nothing but good things about the MX6's, $42 per shock seemed pretty good to me.

Rubber Chuck
06-15-2006, 04:48 AM
Ok Steve.....I'll get you prices on everything today and PM them to you when I get a chance.

As far as the rear sway bar is concerned.....I just left mine stock w/ no discos. It did just snap in half.....so I will see how it wheels this weekend w/ no bar in the back and see if it's worthwhile putting discos in the back.
Maybe somebody on here as run w/o the rear bar and would chime in w/ some input??

kevinc
06-15-2006, 05:19 AM
keep the rear swaybar...just get extensions to keep the bar level when you're lifted. otherwise it gets kinda crappy feeling (tippy) on the rocks with the front disconnected, and feels like you are driving a boat. BTW.....what does your front driveshaft look like? at the axle end does it have a boot or a u-joint? if it is booted, give it the boot.........junkyards have u-jointed shafts from 4.0 grands....someone feel free to correct me on the years/models that have u-joint d-shafts.

Kevin C.

Rubber Chuck
06-15-2006, 08:24 AM
As promised.....Raybestos part numbers on YJ brake hoses for use w/ 4.5"
lift on a ZJ
BH38862
BH38861

ELLLLLIOTTTTT
06-15-2006, 08:33 AM
I ran a front to rear swap on my ZJ back in the day. Very cost effective, you dont even neccessarily need new arms. Adjustable trackbars, new set of front springs, and shocks is all you need.

nate
06-15-2006, 09:27 AM
Swaybars?

I don't have any of those. A small one in the rear would have helped me out a few times on off camber stuff like tip over challenge, but it's not bad enough to waste me time/money on one.

Skyline
06-15-2006, 09:58 AM
keep the rear swaybar...just get extensions to keep the bar level when you're lifted. otherwise it gets kinda crappy feeling (tippy) on the rocks with the front disconnected, and feels like you are driving a boat. BTW.....what does your front driveshaft look like? at the axle end does it have a boot or a u-joint? if it is booted, give it the boot.........junkyards have u-jointed shafts from 4.0 grands....someone feel free to correct me on the years/models that have u-joint d-shafts.

Kevin C.
Thanks for the advice. I really appreciate you guys chiming in. Here's a pic of the POS driveshaft:
http://www.members.aol.com/bavariancoupe/driveshaft.jpg

I can't tell you the grief this POS caused me when the Jeep was brand new. It caused a terrible vibration at 50mph. I had it replaced 4 different times under warrantee, and while the problem changed a bit with each swap, I still had a problem. I took Chrysler to court under the lemon law; and LOST. They made the case that all full time 4WD vehicles had inherrent vibrations. Well, one day later, I took matters into my own hands, dropped the shaft, and took it for balancing. My brand new shaft was way out of wack. After the balancing my vibration problem was 95% cured. You should see the big weight that had to be welded on the thing. Such a simple cure, but I always wondered why Chrysler never tried it on my behalf.

The reason I bring up this story is not to highlight Chrysler's wonderful customer service,(LOL) it is that I think it is very unusual to see a CV joint in a driveshaft, other than Jeeps, that is. I think this was a band-aid attempt to reduce vibrations that are caused by an inherrent design flaw.

So this brings up a few other questions:

I have not heard about anywhere near as many problems with these ZJ shafts as I've hear about the WJ front shafts. Should I really be concerned?

Assuming my band-aid theory is correct, will a U-Joint shaft cause more vibrations? (If not, why the heck did Jeep switch from U-Joint design to use the CV shaft in the first place????)

Is this a good idea while I still have a 249?

Will a 4.0 u joint DS bolt right up to my 249 and front diff? Or do I need to change yokes or anything else.

And finally, assuming that this is a swap I really need to do, what years 4.0 shaft do I need?

Thanks for sharing the knowledge guys.

See you on the trails,

Steve

Skyline
06-15-2006, 10:03 AM
As promised.....Raybestos part numbers on YJ brake hoses for use w/ 4.5"
lift on a ZJ
BH38862
BH38861

Thanks Chuck. Any chance you could tell me how long the YJ lines are?

The reason I ask, is that, just prior to contemplating this lift, I installed new front calipers and brake lines. The new lines, (aftermarket, I don't know what brand) seem quite a bit longer than the original ones. Maybe they're long enough?

Steve

Rubber Chuck
06-16-2006, 09:10 PM
Thanks Chuck. Any chance you could tell me how long the YJ lines are?

The reason I ask, is that, just prior to contemplating this lift, I installed new front calipers and brake lines. The new lines, (aftermarket, I don't know what brand) seem quite a bit longer than the original ones. Maybe they're long enough?

Steve

Hey Steve......I didn't measure the hoses.....but I bet they are at least 3" longer then the stock ZJ hoses.

Skyline
06-17-2006, 12:58 PM
Hey Steve......I didn't measure the hoses.....but I bet they are at least 3" longer then the stock ZJ hoses.

I don't have my original hoses anymore so I have no basis for comparison.

Jim311
06-17-2006, 10:24 PM
Well, if you're gonna build cheap, you gotta have skills to fabricate and find the parts you need in junkyard and whatnot and make them work. It's not easy, but it can be done on a reasonably low budget if you know what you're doing. My best advice is to keep looking at the For Sale sections of boards. What I do is just wait around until stuff I need is on sale second hand for cheap. It's worked well for me so far.

Skyline
06-17-2006, 11:35 PM
Well, if you're gonna build cheap, you gotta have skills to fabricate and find the parts you need in junkyard and whatnot and make them work. It's not easy, but it can be done on a reasonably low budget if you know what you're doing. My best advice is to keep looking at the For Sale sections of boards. What I do is just wait around until stuff I need is on sale second hand for cheap. It's worked well for me so far.

I have been watching the boards and eBay, but without too much luck so far. I want to be wheeling on a lifted Jeep with 33's by the end of the summer, whether or not I can find used stuff; I just need to do things in stages. I have pretty reasonable mechanical skills, but so far, I've focused my attention pretty much on sports/race cars, and classic car restorations, so doing work beyond basic maintenence on the Jeep is new to me. I have gotten plenty of stuff from salvage yards in the past, but I think the real need for those kinds of items (axles) comes at the next level from what I'm working on now.

I think for the inital stages of what I've outlined, I don't think I'm going to build too many of the bits myself, but I believe I have all the tools and skills I will need to install everything myself, (although I'm a bit nervous about installing 4.56 gear sets myself....gotta get some new toys...I mean tools, first).

I can see where once one gets really serious, a great deal of fabrication becomes essential....but that's a ways off for me.

Swamp boy
06-18-2006, 09:36 PM
Mine came mostly from bone yards..

And I still manage spend an ungodly amount of money on it...:confused:

Rubber Chuck
06-19-2006, 02:03 PM
Hey Steve.......sent ya a pm :supz:

Skyline
06-19-2006, 06:59 PM
Hey Steve.......sent ya a pm :supz:Thanks for all your help. I'll give your friend a call.

Steve

dads5.9
06-19-2006, 08:11 PM
Steve,

It can certainly be done on a budget over time. We started out four years ago with a tired '93 GC and a front to rear spring swap. My sons and I now own four GC's and two of them are on long arms and 35s. Visit my son Justin's site at http://www.jeepzj.net for more information on the build-ups. There are a lot of used parts available as people continually upgrade their Jeeps and for those that are parting them out.

V

Skyline
07-07-2006, 10:28 AM
Should I go with 15" wheels or 16" wheels?

I know most GC guys use 15's, but all the talk of upgrading the brakes with the WJ knuckles has made me wonder. Since the later WJ brakes don't fit under 15" wheels, why not go 16"? Then, if I do this conversion down the road, (which seems to make a lot of sense to me!) I could use the improved later style WJ brakes.

Now as far as tires are concerned, there is apparantly no such thing as a 33"X12.5"X16". BUT, Tirerack tells me a 305/70/16 is only slightly smaller. There are a few good choices in that size, including the MT/Rs and also the VERY nicely priced Dunlop Mud Rover. ($137 ea.) Has anyone tried these Dunlops? They have very high survey ratings by Tire Rack customers.

Rubber Chuck
07-07-2006, 02:26 PM
The Dunlops aren't a bad tire.....probably won't be the best on the street.

I am gonna PM you.

Skyline
07-07-2006, 03:41 PM
The Dunlops aren't a bad tire.....probably won't be the best on the street.


My ZJ only sees a few thousand miles a year at most. So off road perfomance is really the priority. But are you saying the MT/Rs and the Dunlops are comparable off road, but the MT/R's are significantly better on-road??? I definately want a full off-road tread pattern, (as opposed to something like the AT's or my current Revo's).

dads5.9
07-07-2006, 04:02 PM
If you are still looking for used parts I have a complete RE 4.5 except rear track bar (the kit comes with a bracket you should avoid any way), brake lines, and shocks (which don't come with the kit either). Let me know if you are interested.

Justin

CurtP
07-07-2006, 04:25 PM
Just as a FYI - keep an eye out on your credit card statement. I ordered the MX6 shocks from 4wheelparts.com under that "special" deal. I got a confirmation e-mail and everthing looked peachy. When I checked my account, I saw where they ran a second charge so I called and bitched. What apparently happened is that whoever updated their website put the "buy one, get one free" price on the shock page, then the checkout procedure gave the discount again. Someone caught the "buy two, get two free" deal and tried to "fix" it. I was prepared to go to the mat over it since they didn't say anything about it before they shipped them. However, they reversed the second charge and made good on the deal.

If I had known, I would have ordered several sets! However, I consider it a once-in-a-lifetime deal and am very happy with how they handled it (although I wasn't happy how someone tried to correct the mistake in the first place).

Skyline
07-07-2006, 05:36 PM
Just as a FYI - keep an eye out on your credit card statement. I ordered the MX6 shocks from 4wheelparts.com under that "special" deal. I got a confirmation e-mail and everthing looked peachy. When I checked my account, I saw where they ran a second charge so I called and bitched. What apparently happened is that whoever updated their website put the "buy one, get one free" price on the shock page, then the checkout procedure gave the discount again. Someone caught the "buy two, get two free" deal and tried to "fix" it. I was prepared to go to the mat over it since they didn't say anything about it before they shipped them. However, they reversed the second charge and made good on the deal.

If I had known, I would have ordered several sets! However, I consider it a once-in-a-lifetime deal and am very happy with how they handled it (although I wasn't happy how someone tried to correct the mistake in the first place).

Thanks for the heads up. I'll check now. That was a pretty awesome deal!

edit--Just checked my VISA- no extra charges.

96zj4x4
07-07-2006, 07:00 PM
i ran the mud rovers on my zj for a year or so before i sold it, and they were great, a lil noise on road, but off road they were really good, got em from sams club for 120 a peice i think, and that has lifetime balance/rotation and replacement for flats, and damage.

addicted4wheeler
07-07-2006, 08:05 PM
i have got a used 4.5 short arm rubi kit with only 2000 miles on it thats for sale. Its still on my truck... but not for long. I would include the shocks on it, and all the hardware, and everything that is included in the kit. It would be the complete package with rancho 5000 shocks.

Skyline
07-07-2006, 10:16 PM
i have got a used 4.5 short arm rubi kit with only 2000 miles on it thats for sale. Its still on my truck... but not for long. I would include the shocks on it, and all the hardware, and everything that is included in the kit. It would be the complete package with rancho 5000 shocks.

I've already got RE 4.5 front springs, MX6 shocks, JKS lower rear CAs, spacers to =4.5" with a F>R, and extended front (YJ) brake lines.

I still need:
An adjustable rear track bar, (I don't want to use a drop bracket),
A front track bar (I think I want to get Kevin's conversion),
The other 6 CA's (front upper& lower, rear upper),
Bump stop extensions
Discos
Rear sway bar extensions
Wheels & Tires

If you want to sell any of those pieces seperately, let me know.

dads5.9
07-08-2006, 10:43 AM
Depending on your wheels you can the WJ brakes on 15" wheels. I'm running it right now and I didn't have to grind the calipers. It just deponds on you wheels. I have about 3/8" clearance between the caliper and my aluminum wheels.

Skyline
07-08-2006, 01:24 PM
Depending on your wheels you can the WJ brakes on 15" wheels. I'm running it right now and I didn't have to grind the calipers. It just deponds on you wheels. I have about 3/8" clearance between the caliper and my aluminum wheels.

But didn't you use the early style WJ brakes?

Skyline
09-14-2006, 02:47 PM
OK, the last piece in my F>R lift is finally here::D

4.5" RE Front Springs
MX6 Shocks
Extended brake lines, bump stops (F+R), and rear sway bar links
JKS 4.5"+ Discos
JKS Rear Adj. Track Bar
JKS BPE's
JKS Lower Rear Adj. Arms
JKS Lower Front Adj. Arms
JKS Upper Front Adj. Arms
JKS WJ Front Adj. track bar (that comes with Kevin's conversion)
Kevin's Track Bar Bracket
RE Rear upper Adj. Arms
Daystar 1 3/4" spacers for rear

16X8 Pro Comp wheels and 305/70/16 Dunlop Mud Rovers on order.

Thanks to Rubberchuck for getting me most of the stuff.

I will start taking pics as soon as I get into the garage.

Skyline
09-15-2006, 06:42 PM
Moderator - this thread will continue as the install of the 4.5 lift. You might want to move it to Noobie Tech.

1st wrenching session Lift install:

Removed front shocks, sway bar end links, unbolted track bar and both tie rods form the knuckles. Unbolted OME SS. Needed to use a press to remove the sway bar end links and SS.

Major fuck up- I had the axle supported, and then decided to lift the body using a Hi- Lift on the driver side slider. Well I lifted it too far and the axle slid off the jackstands. The passenger side rotor was about 4in off the floor and the Heep had slid to about 18 in form the wall on the passenger side. I ultimately got a floor jack under the front diff. I wheeled it partially back strait yanking on the floor jack. I just couldn't get it back where I was comfortable working on the passenger side, so out came my come-a-long, and I winched the car to the center pillar in the garage, (rolling on the floor jack) Once strait, I was able to jack the passenger side back up, and get the axle to drop back to the jackstands. This whole time I was cursing myself for being an idiot. Everything back to normal now.

Now I'm finding the axle won't drop far enough, so I'm removing the tie rod/drag link. Making progress.

Here are pics of:

Old shocks

New shocks

Steering coming off

New Discos (Red tag tell you to use Red Loctite on those bolts)

Skyline
09-15-2006, 06:48 PM
Here ares pics of the new CA's

Another Pic of the front end...steering coming off.

Skyline
09-23-2006, 07:04 PM
Extended brake lines (Raybestos part #BH38861 & #BH38862):

Skyline
09-23-2006, 07:12 PM
Bought extended bump stops from Kevin. I couldn't get the self tapping bolts to tap. So I found some nice grade 8 BMW bolts I had on hand and tapped the hole properly. (Even before eBay, if I needed more than a few parts for my old BMW restorations, I would buy whole cars that had what I needed, and part them out. One thing I did, was save every nut and bolt that wasn't rusted, and filed it away for future use. That was 15 years ago, and I still have plenty of left over high grade hardware! Made a few bucks selling parts too, mostly through the BMW Car club. Met some great people that way, too.)

Skyline
09-23-2006, 07:14 PM
Bump stop extension mounted:

ProjectZJOM617T
09-23-2006, 07:20 PM
Budget tires...
http://www.high-tec-retreading.com/sizes.html

D muds with the green diamond compound...
315-75R-16 (35")

Where you are is'nt as bad as MN or Ft Drum.... But if you want to get around the mts and foothills in other areas some tires that grip ice like these should be nice...

Skyline
09-23-2006, 07:25 PM
As you've probably seen by now....the budget in this budget build up has pretty much gone out the window. I guess I could have spent more, (and had better results) by going long arm, but I think a good short arm set up will be a good training ground for me to build wheeling experience. Also, I would want to install it all myself, and long arms means buying a welder. While I really want a welder, that also means getting 220 to my garage. So I would have had to add at least $1500 to the long arm cost. Maybe I have to face the fact that there's not much I like spending money on more than my cars.

The other thing, while I was looking to try to economize, used JKS stuff seems to sell for close to 60-70% of new price on eBay, assuming it is in good condition. So since I bought good stuff now, I can get a good chunk on my money back in a year or two when I go to long arms, (assuming I haven't killed the ZJ by then!)

Skyline
09-23-2006, 07:32 PM
Budget tires...
http://www.high-tec-retreading.com/sizes.html

D muds with the green diamond compound...
315-75R-16 (35")

Where you are is'nt as bad as MN or Ft Drum.... But if you want to get around the mts and foothills in other areas some tires that grip ice like these should be nice...

Thanks for the link. The only economizing I did in the tire department was to order Dunlop Mud Rovers. Everything I've read about them has been good, and they were a whole lot less than MTR's. Again, Rubberchuck got me an excellent price on these. I went with 305/70/16's, along with Pro Comp Mags. I tried to justify the small added cost of getting mags by telling myself that 4 Pro Comps cost less than a single Volk wheel from my DD.

ProjectZJOM617T
09-23-2006, 08:08 PM
http://greendiamondtire.com/news6.html

A ralley guy tries the greenies on a WRX..

We tried some on a ice racing hoopty in the studless class.... Kicked alot of butt...

I'm thinking the GD D-muds... Minor grooving then light siping... Mostly so they break and wear a touch faster so I see the green stuff for winter..

Skyline
09-27-2006, 11:14 PM
9/27 Progress report:

Started changing out the stock front control arms for the JKS ones. 3 done. On the last CA, (lower drivers side) the cam nut was so tight I couldn't get it off. My impact gun did nothing, and my 24" Snap On breaker bar was starting to bend (with the handle of my floor jack as a cheater on it) when I gave up on that method. I figure I could try to heat it with a torch, but I only have a propane one...no oxy-acetelyn. You guys think that will help, or should I just give up, cut it off, and get a new one?

Funny thing, is that I know exactly who over torqued this thing. I put that CA on myself a few months ago to proper torque spec, but the shop that did the allignment must have gorilla-tightened it. It seems that every time I work on my Jeep, I find reminders of the shitty work that others have done. The moral of the story is to do ALL your own work, but I don't plan on adding an alignment rack to my tool collection any time soon....so I guess it's time to find a new alignment shop.

Nick
09-27-2006, 11:39 PM
Get some big pipe and put it on the end of that i have like a 4 foot breaker bar and if i cant get it off with that then i usualy just end up cutting out the bolt.

PassRunnerZJ
09-28-2006, 01:32 AM
Soak the bolt threads with penetrating oil for half-a-day or more then the breaker bar should work.

Earlier reading you were talking about putting WJ wheels/brakes on your ZJ, you would have to change your rear axle shafts to start with to match the front as the WJ is 5x5" and the ZJ is 5x4.5", unless I'm missing something here it won't work and you'd be money ahead getting some used Rubicon or aftermarket wheels if you want to go to 16" wheels. Then there is the caliper mounting brackets and the tone rings are probably differnt for the ABS. Also the stock WJ rotors suck (I have a set of warped ones on my garge floor). Spend the $$$ and time upgrading to better ZJ components.

Rubber Chuck
09-28-2006, 04:58 AM
Steve....go ahead and soak the bolt w/ PB blaster or the like. But if you think it's over tightened.....Heat will work the best. Concentrate on the nut......just becareful...the rubber bushing will catch real easy.

Skyline
09-28-2006, 11:08 AM
I gave it a good dose of PB last night. So I'll give it another try this afternoon. If the breaker bar w/cheater dosn't work, then I'll torch it (I'll keep a fire extinguisher handy). That doesn't work, I then will cut it off. You can't believe how much torque I put on this thing already....I was watching almost 2" of deflection at the end of the Snap On breaker bar.

What I was really curious about was whether the Propane torch I have would be good enough....or whether you need an oxy-acetelyn to make a difference in these situations.

Skyline
09-28-2006, 11:20 AM
Earlier reading you were talking about putting WJ wheels/brakes on your ZJ, you would have to change your rear axle shafts to start with to match the front as the WJ is 5x5" and the ZJ is 5x4.5", unless I'm missing something here it won't work and you'd be money ahead getting some used Rubicon or aftermarket wheels if you want to go to 16" wheels. Then there is the caliper mounting brackets and the tone rings are probably differnt for the ABS. Also the stock WJ rotors suck (I have a set of warped ones on my garge floor). Spend the $$$ and time upgrading to better ZJ components.

While I am thinking about the WJ knuckle conversion, and using the better WJ brakes, I plan on staying with the ZJ bolt pattern. I would use aftermarket rotors, as the WJ ones are the wrong bolt pattern anyway. Since I'm going to use 12.5" wide tires, the Rubicon wheels are not really the right offset for a ZJ, (I believe they are 4.5"). But before I try any of this, I'm going to pull the fuse on the ABS, and see what that does. I think the ABS is one of the main obstacles in stopping a ZJ with the stock system. If I do this conversion, the WJ calipers are VERY tight with a 15" wheel. Not saying it doesn't work, but I figured a 16" wheel would give me a little leway. I also figured it would only be a matter of time before I dented a wheel on the trail, and if there is only a few milimeters between caliper and rotor; it could spell problems. Not to mention giving some clearance for mud on the inside of the wheel, (who wants constant scraping noises on the trail.) So I bought 16" wheels with the 5X4.5 and with the correct backspacing for a ZJ.

Rubber Chuck
09-28-2006, 12:49 PM
The set of Rubicon wheels I have here measure out at 5" of backspace

Skyline
09-28-2006, 01:31 PM
The set of Rubicon wheels I have here measure out at 5" of backspace

I think those look pretty decent on a ZJ, but I think you'd have to use spacers to get them out a bit assuming you want decent size tires.

Rubber Chuck
09-28-2006, 02:56 PM
I kind of like the way these pro comp alloys I have sitting here look. Good thing my junk is broken and sitting at the park.....these wheels would look awesome on the rubberized ZJ :bling: :supz: :bling:

Skyline
09-29-2006, 12:45 PM
OK, for future referrence, save the propane torch for plumbing. It did not do shit as far as heating the CA bolt hot enough to get it off. In the past, when I've heated things with an oxy-acetelyn torch, you can get anything red hot. Not so with a propane torch. Apparantly, it will only heat copper pipe red hot.

So I cut the POS off with the cut off wheel. I took a trip to the local junkyard, (which is not pick-n-pull type yard). Most of the stuff I've gotten there, they have already removed when I get there. When I told them I needed a bolt, he told me to help myself, and pointed me in the direction of about 8 GC's. Since not one had wheels, and I had no jack, I knew I would need some luck. I found a GC with no engine or hood, and I was able climb in to get the cam bolt off. As I banged it out, it burried itself in the dirt. I couldn't get it all the way out. So I hunted around in the GC's untill I found a jack...then jacked the car up about the 1" I needed to get the bolt out. Freebie!

Anyway, 10 minutes after getting home, my last JKS arm was in. Now I see why JKS recommends using anti-seize on the CA bolts. Here's the pics so far:

Skyline
09-29-2006, 10:31 PM
Bar pin eliminators getting squeezed in. I needed to use the bushing drift shown to drive out the sleeve that came in the shock bushing:

Skyline
09-29-2006, 10:37 PM
OK, WTF?????

This brake line seems to want to go right where the shock is. Do I have these YJ lines on the wrong sides? Cause if I do, the conection to the body line is definately not going to be the way the stock line were if I switch them. And there is only one position you can mount the caliper end; it has a flat side. There is no way I can use these brake lines like this. Do I need to bend the stiff part somehow? Do I need to give up on these and order some of the stainless lines? IDEAS PLEASE!

Pitch
09-30-2006, 11:29 AM
I think those look pretty decent on a ZJ, but I think you'd have to use spacers to get them out a bit assuming you want decent size tires.

This is a set of Rubi Moab rims on a ZJ with 3.5" Tera springs. The tires are 235/85/16(32x9.5) Maxxis Bighorns. A 265/75/16 would also fit without rubbing.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v390/mamabunni/SedonaTrip/IMG_0854.jpg

Skyline
09-30-2006, 07:12 PM
This is a set of Rubi Moab rims on a ZJ with 3.5" Tera springs. The tires are 235/85/16(32x9.5) Maxxis Bighorns. A 265/75/16 would also fit without rubbing.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v390/mamabunni/SedonaTrip/IMG_0854.jpg

Nice. But I plan on using 33x12.5s. And with those tires, the Rubi rims WOULD need spacers. I still feel the Rubi look really nice on a ZJ.

But a new set of mags like the Pro Comps I bought, with the correct offset, does not cost a whole more than a used set of Rubi wheels goes for.

Skyline
10-02-2006, 07:33 PM
I took advantage of a day off work to drive down to see Chuck MacLellan (Rubberchuck) to pick up my new wheels and tires. There are definately advantages to having a tire distributor in our midst (thanks Chuck):

ELLLLLIOTTTTT
10-02-2006, 11:48 PM
This is a set of Rubi Moab rims on a ZJ with 3.5" Tera springs. The tires are 235/85/16(32x9.5) Maxxis Bighorns. A 265/75/16 would also fit without rubbing.

who is that nerd??? :D

Skyline
10-02-2006, 11:58 PM
Solved the brake line issue. I could not see any way to make these Raybestos YJ lines work, so I shitcanned them. I installed some extended steel braided kevlar lines that have no 6" stiff metal part at the bottom.

LouisianiaZJ
10-03-2006, 03:16 AM
nice!

Skyline
10-04-2006, 03:40 PM
Here's the second attempt at extended brake lines:

Skyline
10-04-2006, 03:42 PM
Here's the JKS "Quicker" disconnect:

PassRunnerZJ
10-05-2006, 10:03 AM
I couldn't tell from the picture, but if your braided SS lines are not wrapped in some kind of tubing you should get some of the twist on wiring wraps to put on them as the braiding is real abrasive and will tear things up when and where it rubs. Looking good.

Skyline
10-05-2006, 11:33 AM
I couldn't tell from the picture, but if your braided SS lines are not wrapped in some kind of tubing you should get some of the twist on wiring wraps to put on them as the braiding is real abrasive and will tear things up when and where it rubs. Looking good.

Thanks, good idea. As far as I can tell, right now they don't go near anything. The way they were twisted, I thought they might be a problem with the rear of the tire, but when I mounted one up it was about 4" away. Once I get the suspension all done, the next step is to bolt on the wheels and tires and see what rubs where, and begin trimming. While my primary concern is the fenders, both inner and outer, I will pay careful attention to these brake lines when I'm doing moving the suspension up and down and turning the wheels to each side.

Rubber Chuck
10-05-2006, 11:38 AM
Hey Steve.....it's lookin Awesome!!! :supz:
Wanna do a shake down run next Sunday(15th)?

Skyline
10-05-2006, 11:44 AM
Hey Steve.....it's lookin Awesome!!! :supz:
Wanna do a shake down run next Sunday(15th)?

That's a possibility; but at the rate I've been progressing on this, it will be close. I'll let you know early next week.

Skyline
10-06-2006, 04:31 PM
Kevin's Track Bar Conversion all mounted up. Sorry for the picture quality.

Skyline
10-06-2006, 04:35 PM
Finally back down on the ground in front. Everything in the front is done for the moment.

gonecheenin
10-06-2006, 04:47 PM
Grand's lookin majorly awesome man!



You using the upper loop style conversion on the front shocks too?
How long are your front shocks Ext. & Comp.?

Skyline
10-06-2006, 06:01 PM
Grand's lookin majorly awesome man!

Thanks!



You using the upper loop style conversion on the front shocks too?
How long are your front shocks Ext. & Comp.?

The only change I made from the stock shock mounting was to use a set of JKS Bar Pin Eliminators at the bottom end. They are Pro Comp MX6 shocks...not sure of the length, but when I bought them, I asked for a shock for a 4.5" lift.

Skyline
10-09-2006, 06:59 PM
The axle was a little to close to get the lower CA bolt in, so I used a come-along between the axle and the trailer hitch. Worked like a charm.

Skyline
10-09-2006, 07:05 PM
This is what was left of the upper CA! The bolt was totally frozen in the center of the bushing. After trying to bang it out, using a puller to try to drive it out, and trying to turn it out, after a couple of hours, I gave up and cut the whole arm to bits with the cut off wheel. What a PITA. I hate those stupid torx bolts! This was one of those times when I wish I had a sawzall in my tool box...it would have saved me 15 minutes or so with the cut off wheel.

gonecheenin
10-10-2006, 07:59 AM
Welcome to the north east

Where a 2 year old vehicle has rusted & froze bolts - LOL

Skyline
10-16-2006, 05:28 PM
Ran into another snag this afternoon. I finished dialing in the rear pinion angle, and went to install the shocks. With jackstands under the rear axle fully supporting the weight of the rear of the vehicle, the shocks were about 2" short of reaching the attachment point. So by my guess, they are about 6-8in short in total. I am doing a 4.5" short arm lift, and these are Pro Comp MX6 # MX6016 shocks. These are 22.5" long. Anyone have any idea what the correct Pro Comp shocks should be?

gonecheenin
10-16-2006, 06:55 PM
No idea on the Procomp shocks, but I may be able to give you a cheaper temprorary fix from Napa

heres the rear shocks i'm gonna be running on my Grand with a 4.5" lift

Rear Napa part# 94252
(94252 specs are C-16.6", E-28.3", T-11.6"
Rear stock were C-13.4", E-21.5", T-8.1")


They will bolt right on with the factory mounting hardware.

MUDDTRACKS
10-16-2006, 08:48 PM
why not just cut off the shock mounts from the axle and move them up.

It will also save your shocks from getting f-ed when wheeling and keep you from hanging up on the low ass mounts.

Skyline
10-16-2006, 10:44 PM
No idea on the Procomp shocks, but I may be able to give you a cheaper temprorary fix from Napa

heres the rear shocks i'm gonna be running on my Grand with a 4.5" lift

Rear Napa part# 94252
(94252 specs are C-16.6", E-28.3", T-11.6"
Rear stock were C-13.4", E-21.5", T-8.1")


They will bolt right on with the factory mounting hardware.

I think you're going to need longer rear shocks. My rears are 22.5" and are about 1 1/5" short of reaching the mounting points with 0 droop on the suspension with the shock at full extension. There is no way a 21.5" shock is going to work with a 4.5" lift on a ZJ.

At this point, I'm trying to decide between 27 1/2in Pro Comps (17.4" compressed) or 29 1/2" Pro Comps (18.82" compressed).

Skyline
10-16-2006, 10:48 PM
why not just cut off the shock mounts from the axle and move them up.

It will also save your shocks from getting f-ed when wheeling and keep you from hanging up on the low ass mounts.

A decent idea, but I'll save the shock relocation for when I get a different axle. I also need to buy a welder first, and get my welding skills up a bit before I go into that territory.

napajeep
10-16-2006, 10:55 PM
I believe gonecheenin stated that the STOCK shocks were 21.5", the NAPA shocks are 28.3" extended.

Skyline
10-16-2006, 10:59 PM
I believe gonecheenin stated that the STOCK shocks were 21.5", the NAPA shocks are 28.3" extended.

Sorry, I misread that.Thanks.

gonecheenin
10-17-2006, 12:06 AM
LOL
Yep, napajeep figured it out


You need to measure your bumpstops & available uptravel before deciding on shocks, and you should always decide according to compressed length and then maximize your travel off of that to avoid the common problem of your shocks becoming your bumpstops because they are too long for the application

I went with the 16.3" C length because i figured 3.2" longer then stock will work well with the 2" extended/spaced rear bumpstops (In all honesty I should have flexed the Heep out & measured from there, but calculating the length increases off of the original shock lengths & bumpstop mods should also work without issue)

Skyline
10-17-2006, 10:38 AM
LOL
Yep, napajeep figured it out


You need to measure your bumpstops & available uptravel before deciding on shocks, and you should always decide according to compressed length and then maximize your travel off of that to avoid the common problem of your shocks becoming your bumpstops because they are too long for the application

I went with the 16.3" C length because i figured 3.2" longer then stock will work well with the 2" extended/spaced rear bumpstops (In all honesty I should have flexed the Heep out & measured from there, but calculating the length increases off of the original shock lengths & bumpstop mods should also work without issue)

Thanks for the help. I think I'm going to need longer bump stop extensions. Mine are 1 1/2 inches, and by my measurment, that means I need a shock that compresses shorter than 16.5". Sounds like your choice of the NAPA shock is right on. Where did you buy your 2" bump stop extensions? Even better would be if I can find 2 1/2" bump stop extensions.

gonecheenin
10-17-2006, 12:10 PM
Remember your shocks lean back at a mild angle so the shocks travel will not exactly mimick the axles travel when compressed (Once the suspension reachs near maximum droop though the shock ends up travelling in almost exactly the same path as the axle)



Where did you buy your 2" bump stop extensions? Even better would be if I can find 2 1/2" bump stop extensions.

I bought the lower front "extensions" (axle side) from Rubicon express, but I didn't buy rear extensions because on a ZJ they are nothing but a 2" thick flat plate & will be super easy to make with a pc of 2" square tubing & some longer bolts (grade 8 of course to handle the side loading)

Skyline
10-17-2006, 12:30 PM
I wanted to stay with the Pro Com MX6 shocks, (although it seems the NAPA part you used is a better fit). I ended up returning the one's I got, and ordering a set of MX6012, which are 26 1/2" extended, and 17.2" compressed. I think I'll need to build up the bump stops about 2 1/2 - 3".

Thanks for the advice gonecheenin, it really helped me to figure this out.

gonecheenin
10-17-2006, 01:55 PM
No problem man

Skyline
10-25-2006, 10:55 PM
Got the correct rear shocks, and now the ZJ is on the ground. Still have some fine tuning to do before it sees anything more than my driveway. I'll get some pics outside tomorrow:

Skyline
10-25-2006, 11:03 PM
One concern I have is the clearance between the rear tire and the front of the fender. I am using all JKS arms except my upper rears which are RE. When setting the rear pinion angle, I could not make the upper arms as long as I would like (I ran out of threads!). I adjusted them to the limit of what I felt was going to hold together under stress, then did the balance of the pinion angle adjustment with the lower arms. Needless to say, I haven't started trimming yet, but I'd hate to trim just because the arms are too damn short. I'd sooner dump these arms, and get one more set of JKS. Does this look too close???

Pitch
10-26-2006, 12:59 AM
On short arms that clearance will probably work. But you already know the best way to find out.

Looking good!

Rubber Chuck
10-26-2006, 04:58 AM
Hey Steve......Jeep is lookin Good !!!
My rear tires are pretty close as well.....Remmy that when that wheel moves up.....it's going to move back as well. Like Pitch said.....only 1 way to find out.

gonecheenin
10-26-2006, 08:15 AM
Jeeps looking GREAT man!


Are you still running the stock rear isolator along with the rear spacers?

If so I'd drop that out & run just the spacer from the looks of things


I think the tires running a little too close for what i would want, but if your pinions dead on try turning it down a couple degrees

that will help your clearances alot without causing much if at all in the way of vibes (leaf sprung rigs do that all the time to compensate for mild axle wrap when under hard accelaration)

Skyline
10-26-2006, 10:12 AM
Jeeps looking GREAT man!


Are you still running the stock rear isolator along with the rear spacers?

If so I'd drop that out & run just the spacer from the looks of things



Yes, I'm using both the isolator and the 1 3/4" spacer. I really didn't like the way the spring was not really centering itself on the spacer at all. As a remedy, I decided to abandon the F>R lift, and ordered a set of rear 4.5" RE springs from Rubber Chuck. Then I think I'll keep the isolators.

I really need to figure out some way to stuff the suspension around here (with heading all the way out to the trails), so I can really see what hits.

PassRunnerZJ
10-26-2006, 10:23 AM
I really need to figure out some way to stuff the suspension around here (with heading all the way out to the trails), so I can really see what hits.

Jacks on opposite corners will work reasonably well, if you only have one jack, try using stands under the axles on the oposite corner or some safely stacked large blocks or extra tires w/wheels. If you know of a loading dock that is close, that works reasonably well too. Now that the springs are in it would be a pain to take them out and jack stand the vehicle to use a jack to move the axle up and down on each corner with the control arms attached and wheels on. Just some thoughts.

Skyline
10-26-2006, 10:54 AM
Jacks on opposite corners will work reasonably well, if you only have one jack, try using stands under the axles on the oposite corner or some safely stacked large blocks or extra tires w/wheels. If you know of a loading dock that is close, that works reasonably well too. Now that the springs are in it would be a pain to take them out and jack stand the vehicle to use a jack to move the axle up and down on each corner with the control arms attached and wheels on. Just some thoughts.

I'll try jacking at opposite corners, but I have a feeling that my floorjack does not go up high enough.

gonecheenin
10-26-2006, 02:36 PM
the centering issue is from the front springs having a .25" larger center hole then the rear

Its of no concern though, will cause you no problems at all

ELLLLLIOTTTTT
10-26-2006, 02:46 PM
nice streelocks :flipoff2:

Skyline
10-26-2006, 03:03 PM
the centering issue is from the front springs having a .25" larger center hole then the rear

Its of no concern though, will cause you no problems at all

I've heard of lots of problems with people using BB type lift blocks where they loose a spring on a trail, and after mounting these up, I can see why. There's only a tiny lip on the lift blocks, and there's nothing exposed of the original centering post. I guess this is why you can buy (or make) extensions for the centering post. Anyway, the spring was twisting very slightly to the side at normal ride height, so this made me uncomfortable, (and afraid of loosing a spring on the trail). I know a lot of people do F>R lifts without too many issues, but I know I will be flexing this rig out completely on the trails, so better safe than sorry. Anyway, a set of 4.5" springs are on the way.

Skyline
10-26-2006, 03:10 PM
nice streelocks :flipoff2:Thanks. These are Pro Comp wheels. You can also get fake bead lock rings to go with them, (in a variety of pretty colors!) for a small added cost, but I didn't see the point. But they are a very inexpensize mag, and one of the few wheels I could get in 16X8. I'll keep you posted as to how well they hold up on the trails.

gonecheenin
10-26-2006, 03:58 PM
I've heard of lots of problems with people using BB type lift blocks where they loose a spring on a trail, and after mounting these up, I can see why. There's only a tiny lip on the lift blocks, and there's nothing exposed of the original centering post. I guess this is why you can buy (or make) extensions for the centering post.


Anyway, a set of 4.5" springs are on the way.


Thats why i suggested you take out the stock isolator

I ran a bb with small issues like that, but with the longer front springs in the rear & short arms already limiting your flex you would've been fine


nothing wrong with new springs though (kinda losing the budget thing real bad now anyway - LOL )

Skyline
10-31-2006, 06:04 PM
Todays update;

Still waiting for the rear springs.

Went to set up the steering....centering the steering wheel by adjusting the drag link....and was VERY uncomfortable with the length of the drag link. I am trying to use the Rusty's tie-rod conversion steering. The problem was that there was very little threaded tie rod end left in the drag link when it was adjusted properly. WTF??? So I called them up, and they are sending me the proper length drag link NC. Apparantly, I got a 27 1/2" drag link designed for an XJ, and I need the 29" link.

The punch list is getting pretty short before I take this thing out on the trails.

gonecheenin
10-31-2006, 06:09 PM
that thing is just freakin' awesome

I really dig the stance & can't wait to hear a trail report specially since i'm building mine pretty much the same way (4.5", 33's, etc')

Skyline
10-31-2006, 08:18 PM
Thanks. I'll keep you posted.

Rubber Chuck
10-31-2006, 09:22 PM
Hey Steve......Your Jeep is lookin AWESOME !!!!

Skyline
10-31-2006, 10:38 PM
Hey Steve......Your Jeep is lookin AWESOME !!!!

Thanks Chuck. I should get one of those "Paragon Boo-Boo" stickers for the front bumper.

Skyline
01-15-2007, 10:48 PM
I noticed that one of the things the front tires were rubbing on was the infamous charcoal canister. As others have mentioned, this will fit sideways into the same area it's originally mounter in. Here are some pics:

Before:

http://www.mallcrawlin.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2052&stc=1&d=1168877101

Skyline
01-15-2007, 11:02 PM
The easiest way to get the hoses re-routed was to open up the hole for the hoses a bit. To get at this area, I needed to remove the grill, front bumper, and the big black plastic facia the headlights are mounted in, along with the headlights and turn signals. It's all actually much easier than it sounds...no more than 5 min. I needed to lengthen one of the smaller lines to the charcoal canister, so i cut the plastic tubing inside the engine compartment, and spliced in some fuel line. I was having a bit of trouble getting the canister in place...it looked like it would fit in the area sideways, but would not go. I had to remove the bolt holding the diagonal brace right behind the canister to get just a tiny bit more room. Once the canister was in place, I could re-fasten that bolt. I also needed to unbolt the fog light temoprarily to get it out of the way while the canister was being installed. I just used zip ties to hold it in place.

After remounting the charcoal canister:

corrupt143
01-16-2007, 05:59 AM
Thanks for that info Steve. Ive been wanting to move that for awhile now and just hadnt decided what to do. Ive now made up my mind.

Skyline
01-16-2007, 10:41 AM
Anytime.

If you look at the "before" picture, you can notice the whole canister is kind of mud colored, but the rear edge is black...that's rubber dust. Given the heavy tread lugs on my Mud Rovers, this thing wasn't going to last long if I didn't do something. Now it's completely out of the way.

Skyline
01-24-2007, 08:55 PM
Since I have Kevin's track bar conversion, I know generally a dropped pitman arm is not recommedned. But over the past few days I decided to take off the Rusty's crossover steering using and return to the stock V8 steering, (mostly because I wasn't happy with the way the SS was twisting around, and getting mashed against the track bar). The end of the drag link is now right on top of the SS bolt and the bottom of the sway bar disco. I guess I could move the axle back a bit, but the tire seems to be causing rubbing a bit both in front and back just a now, so moving it back might cause some real problems with rubbing in the pinch seem area. I think the axle is in an OK place in terms of centering the tire. Seems to me a dropped pitman arm might help. Take a look at these pics and see what you guys think:

Rubber Chuck
01-24-2007, 09:44 PM
Hey Steve...How's it going? I remmy a phone conversation you and I had awhile back where we were both bitchin about Bump Steer. I talked to Kevin about a dropped Pitman Arm and he advised me in a very strong way not to do it.....it will most definitely cause bump steer. I know my dl bolt is real close to the stabilizer......but it is a non-issue. I don't know if moving the axle would help...I would think you would have to rotate the housing???

Skyline
01-24-2007, 10:00 PM
Hey Steve...How's it going? I remmy a phone conversation you and I had awhile back where we were both bitchin about Bump Steer. I talked to Kevin about a dropped Pitman Arm and he advised me in a very strong way not to do it.....it will most definitely cause bump steer. I know my dl bolt is real close to the stabilizer......but it is a non-issue. I don't know if moving the axle would help...I would think you would have to rotate the housing???

The end of my DL actually hits the SS bolt, and that is definately not a safe condition.

Rubber Chuck
01-24-2007, 10:12 PM
How's your pinion angle? Do you have room to move it at all? Adjusting it down may solve your problems.
The other thing I thought of......any chance your draglink is bent? I lifted a rubicon this fall and couldn't turn the steering wheel after lifting the front.....turns out it was the same situation you are in....and the dl was bent. Before I figured it out...we did try a dropped arm and it didn't help.
New DL and it was good to go.

Skyline
01-25-2007, 01:14 AM
How's your pinion angle? Do you have room to move it at all? Adjusting it down may solve your problems.
The other thing I thought of......any chance your draglink is bent? I lifted a rubicon this fall and couldn't turn the steering wheel after lifting the front.....turns out it was the same situation you are in....and the dl was bent. Before I figured it out...we did try a dropped arm and it didn't help.
New DL and it was good to go.

I don't think the DL is bent, so I guess I need to rotate the axle a bit down. Actually, that should help the road stability a bit, although the trade off may be more vibration.

Thanks for the advice, Chuck,

Steve

b1pig
01-26-2007, 04:58 AM
Skyline,
Something I ran into when I installed the RE drop brackets on mine. The brackets also move the axle forward just over an inch. When I first installed them, I had adj LCAs which when screwed in all the way were about 1/2" longer than the front arms. This caused the same thing you are dealing with. Of note, is on short arms, under compression, that axle is going to shift forward-into the draglink a little more.

I ended up installing my OEM arms with the drop brackets to resolve it. Not sure if you got it fixed, yet, but you may consider spinning your adj arms in a turn and check the results.

another option is to get another "button head" bolt like the OEM swaybar link bolts. Use that in place of the hex head bolt.

that ZJ is lookin sharp.

Skyline
01-26-2007, 12:50 PM
Skyline,
Something I ran into when I installed the RE drop brackets on mine. The brackets also move the axle forward just over an inch. When I first installed them, I had adj LCAs which when screwed in all the way were about 1/2" longer than the front arms. This caused the same thing you are dealing with. Of note, is on short arms, under compression, that axle is going to shift forward-into the draglink a little more.

I ended up installing my OEM arms with the drop brackets to resolve it. Not sure if you got it fixed, yet, but you may consider spinning your adj arms in a turn and check the results.

another option is to get another "button head" bolt like the OEM swaybar link bolts. Use that in place of the hex head bolt.

that ZJ is lookin sharp.

Thanks.

Skyline
01-27-2007, 02:45 PM
OK, so I tilted the axle down by retracting the upper arms about 1/2". I am now clearing the SS bolt, but the sway bar mount is still a real problem. There's no way I want to move the axle back enough to clear this. Either the drag link must drop, (dropped pitman arm) or the sway bar end mounts must be extended. I know JKS makes 1" and 2" extended mounts, it's a cut and weld proposition. Not only that, if I extend the sway bar mounts, I'll probably need to get shorter JKS discos, as mine are adjusted all the way in at present.

corrupt143
01-27-2007, 03:42 PM
Well if you put the Rustys kit back on now, with the tie rod being straight across, would it now miss the sway bar?

zjinprogress
01-27-2007, 05:22 PM
if he put the rustys stuff back on it would probably clear....but then he'd have the rusty's stuff back on, and evidently thats a problem too! i vote for moving the sway bar brackets and shortening the jks discos (if such a thing is possible)




Mike

b1pig
01-28-2007, 07:03 AM
Skyline, you SHOULD be able to mount that disco on the OUTSIDE of the bracket. see if it'll work that way.

Skyline
01-28-2007, 02:20 PM
Well if you put the Rustys kit back on now, with the tie rod being straight across, would it now miss the sway bar?

I did not have the clearance problems with the Rusty's. There were however, a couple of problems with the Rusty's set up. The most serious is that the tie rod end movement allow the whole thing to trist around a bit. When it twists, the steering stabilizer was getting pinched and crushed. This is also causing some resistance in the steering, which is not all that safe. I'm using an OME SS, which has an outer sleeve...so maybe if I used a SS with no outer sleeve, this could be less of a problem.

Another issue with the Rusty's set up is that precise alignment is not possible. Since the drag link attaches to the tie rod, the tie rod can not rotate. This means that toe is adjustable in 1 degree increments by rotating the driver side tie rod end 360 degrees. So my choice was 1/2 degree toed in or 1/2 degree toed out. Not the 0 degrees I really wanted. I chose slightly toed in.

This whole set up seemed to bump-steer quite a bit more than the stock set up, but then again I have not tried the stock set up with the lift.

corrupt143
01-28-2007, 03:57 PM
I did not have the clearance problems with the Rusty's. There were however, a couple of problems with the Rusty's set up. The most serious is that the tie rod end movement allow the whole thing to trist around a bit. When it twists, the steering stabilizer was getting pinched and crushed. This is also causing some resistance in the steering, which is not all that safe. I'm using an OME SS, which has an outer sleeve...so maybe if I used a SS with no outer sleeve, this could be less of a problem. Now I understand, for some reason, I was still thinking it was a clearance problem like with the stock set up.


Another issue with the Rusty's set up is that precise alignment is not possible. Since the drag link attaches to the tie rod, the tie rod can not rotate. This means that toe is adjustable in 1 degree increments by rotating the driver side tie rod end 360 degrees. So my choice was 1/2 degree toed in or 1/2 degree toed out. Not the 0 degrees I really wanted. I chose slightly toed in. I hadnt thought about that. Without that other conection before where the DL coneects it looses some adjustability. Thanks, this info changes how I was gonna build my steering set up. Thats twice youve helped me with my build. Hopefully someday, I can return the favor.


This whole set up seemed to bump-steer quite a bit more than the stock set up, but then again I have not tried the stock set up with the lift.Now this surprises me. I would think this wouldve been due to the pinion angle you were running with it previously and the short arms. With the 2 knuckes connected together in a fixed position, like with the Rustys, the wheels never changed toe specs through the cycle, except with the twisting of the axle. The stock inverted Y changes the toe with each bump. And then theres always the castor rotation. Theres a sweet spot there somewhere, you just have to find it. This is why LA's are so much better than SA's at higher lifts, less twisting motion of the axle.

Skyline
01-28-2007, 04:54 PM
Now I understand, for some reason, I was still thinking it was a clearance problem like with the stock set up.

I hadnt thought about that. Without that other conection before where the DL coneects it looses some adjustability. Thanks, this info changes how I was gonna build my steering set up. Thats twice youve helped me with my build. Hopefully someday, I can return the favor.

Now this surprises me. I would think this wouldve been due to the pinion angle you were running with it previously and the short arms. With the 2 knuckes connected together in a fixed position, like with the Rustys, the wheels never changed toe specs through the cycle, except with the twisting of the axle. The stock inverted Y changes the toe with each bump. And then theres always the castor rotation. Theres a sweet spot there somewhere, you just have to find it. This is why LA's are so much better than SA's at higher lifts, less twisting motion of the axle.

Well, you're certainly are correct about bump steer, and in theory, the Rusty's set up should not bump steer as much. But when I had this set up on before the lift, (I think I had a bad track bar joint,) I had tremendous DW. With this same bad track bar, the stock steering was fine, not even a hint of DW. The Rusty's set up seems to be more prone to DW and transmitting vibrations through the steering. It also seemed to follow uneven pavement more. I had no DW with all the new lift components, and the Rusty's set up, but there's still more sensitivity to bumps. So maybe it's not really 'bump steer' I'm feeling, but it sure feels like it. Keep in mind that it is possible for a car with a fixed side to side tie rod to have bump steer problems. It relates to a whole complicated set of suspension geometry issues.

I decided to try a drop pitman arm, to see if that helps the clearance problems, and will allow me to see how the stock steering set up will do with the lift. I should have that by Wednesday, so I'll post an update later this week. It kind of makes you wonder why the Jeep has that funky inverted 'y' steering in the first place; there must be a reason...they must have found out that it works better.

Skyline
01-28-2007, 05:03 PM
Skyline, you SHOULD be able to mount that disco on the OUTSIDE of the bracket. see if it'll work that way.

I don't think that would work. The links would be at a pretty good angle, and I think not having the swaybay links straight up and down would reduce the effectiveness of the front bar significantly. I think it would also be a problem to get the lower ends on and off.

Skyline
01-28-2007, 05:07 PM
if he put the rustys stuff back on it would probably clear....but then he'd have the rusty's stuff back on, and evidently thats a problem too! i vote for moving the sway bar brackets and shortening the jks discos (if such a thing is possible)




Mike

Certainly possible, but requires a bit of cutting and welding. There are shorter JKS discos than the ones I have....I have the ones designed for 4.5"+ of lift, so they are adjusted all the way in. And the extended tabs are available. As stated above, I'm going to try the dropped arm next.

corrupt143
01-28-2007, 05:15 PM
I agree 200% about it being complex geometry. When I looked at some of the pics, I was just thinking you track bar and drag link looked pretty well aligned, so I just skipped that whole area.

Im not rying to imply that I know anything more than anyone else, just trying to help you talk your way through your problem. I find that when I have an issue, I sometimes get tunnel vision and over look something. I just assume other people do it too. Not only that, but your build interests me because its very similair to the build I'll be undertaking. Youre helping me work out the bugs before I get into it.:supz::cheer::smt023 I was looking for a high five, but those work.

Skyline
01-28-2007, 05:28 PM
I agree 200% about it being complex geometry. When I looked at some of the pics, I was just thinking you track bar and drag link looked pretty well aligned, so I just skipped that whole area.

Im not rying to imply that I know anything more than anyone else, just trying to help you talk your way through your problem. I find that when I have an issue, I sometimes get tunnel vision and over look something. I just assume other people do it too. Not only that, but your build interests me because its very similair to the build I'll be undertaking. Youre helping me work out the bugs before I get into it.:supz::cheer::smt023 I was looking for a high five, but those work.

I appreciate the comments, and I'll keep you posted.

corrupt143
01-28-2007, 06:26 PM
Well, you're certainly are correct about bump steer, and in theory, the Rusty's set up should not bump steer as much. But when I had this set up on before the lift, (I think I had a bad track bar joint,) I had tremendous DW. With this same bad track bar, the stock steering was fine, not even a hint of DW. The Rusty's set up seems to be more prone to DW and transmitting vibrations through the steering. It also seemed to follow uneven pavement more. I had no DW with all the new lift components, and the Rusty's set up, but there's still more sensitivity to bumps. So maybe it's not really 'bump steer' I'm feeling, but it sure feels like it.

I think your fighting the wrong problem. I think youre trying to get rid of bump steer that you dont have. I think what you have is "tramp" or "shimmy" which is totally different. Theyre uncontrolled vibrations of the wheels due to gyroscopic forces reacting between the wheels. You can normally fix this with tighter bushings and joints. You may not be able to fix this because of the JKS CA's. If there was some way to adjust the tension on them, the way they twist freely, then it might be possible. You might want to stiffen the settings on your shocks too. This could also fix it.

Just some thoughts

Skyline
02-04-2007, 05:26 PM
As an update, I installed the dropped pitman arm (a Skyjacker item), and although it helped the clearance issues a bit, it did not totally solve the problem. The dropped arm added only a bit more than an inch of drop. The ZJ drives a lot better on the road with the stock steering and dropped arm than with the Rusty's crossover set up. There is much less of a tendency for the vehicle to wander or follow dips in the pavement. The ZJ is now a much more normal driving vehicle. It still makes you mindfull that it's a lifted vehicle...but much safer. I don't think I will ever go back to a crossover set up.

BUT, there is now no doubt that I will need to add extensions to the sway bar end link mounts, and possibly get shorter JKS discos. Now the end of the drag link only brushes the sway bar mount insted of really hitting it hard, but it's still not ideal. But after wheeling at Paragon yesterday, it confirmed that I need a new transfer case ASAP (Anyone got a 96-97 242????) and another power steering pump, (third one in as many months!) So it's back to the garage for me.

Skyline
04-14-2007, 02:34 PM
I'm rebuilding my junkyard 242. Replacing all the bearings for good measure. Anyone know how to get this bearing out without damaging the case? I looks like the hole to the side is designed to pry it up, but I can't seem to budge it.

Edit: I tried the only pilot bearing puller I could find around here and it does not grab the bearing. It opens about 1/8" too little. Is the only way to do this with Jeep Special tool MD998346???

aresridingflat
04-14-2007, 03:46 PM
I just read this thread since I saw the bump steer and DW mentioned on the last page...

I am having very similar problems with my junk right now after I put my LA's in.

I am running a 1 ton steering setup, without a drop pitman arm. I also have a TB drop bracket and adjustable TB.

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/2128000-2128999/2128041_123_full.jpg

That is a pic of my front angles, they are a little off, but I really don't think they are too harsh...

Since I live two states away from my jeep I have been searching on what the problems could be. First I thought it was just getting the axles parrallel to eachother, and just the usual alignment woes. Then when I was flipping through a buddy's traxxus RC truck manual I found this:


"bump steer is unwanted change in the steering angle of the front wheels as the suspension travels up and down. It can result in unstable and unpredicatable handling. Bump steer is affected by the position of the outer toe link end on the axle carrier. "

castor was something I hadn't even thought of yet, so I hope to make it back and check the castor angle and hopefully get it to be a little more steady on the road.

Right now anytime i go over a hill, or where the weight shifts over the axles, the jeep will steer itself. it also gets a little finnicky when i hit the brakes, and go above 25mph... so I'm hoping the castor being off has a lot to do with it, we'll see

Will

Skyline
04-14-2007, 04:58 PM
If you set up the front axle for the ideal pinion angle, chances are you have dialed all the castor out and your Jeep will not drive right. About the only way you will get both the castor and pinion angle right is if you cut the knuckles, brackets and spring perches off the tubes, and weld them back on at the correct angle. If you set the castor to factory spec, chances are, you're going to get some driveshaft vibration. I seemed to find a happy median where neiter is ideal, but the Jeep drives OK, and doesn't shake too much. This is one of several reasons many people convert to HP axles...they make this a little less of an issue.

Once the castor is OK, if you still have DW, make sure your toe setting is good. Assuming that it is, you would have to look for a bad joint or something loose....could be any number of things. From the picture, I don't see a steering stabiliser. Am I missing something???? If you really don''t have one...get one. The OME unit is much beefier than stock and would be a good choice. While a SS won't really fix DW, it can make it almost dissapear.

aresridingflat
04-14-2007, 05:15 PM
I have a pro comp SS, it's alright...someday i'll get an OME

no DW problems

I set my pinion to what I thought was stock, but I have to measure the castor to double check to see how off it is...

Will

adam99wj
04-14-2007, 06:56 PM
i was always told dont sacrifice castor angle for pinion angle, if you have vibes get a double cardon front shaft

gonecheenin
04-17-2007, 01:41 PM
It kind of makes you wonder why the Jeep has that funky inverted 'y' steering in the first place; there must be a reason...they must have found out that it works better.

In stock form it is a better setup, but when you lift it like we do it throws all the angles & such outta wack where the YJ style steering keeps the tires where they belong & only require mods to the drag link

Ford even changed from the inverted Y to inverted T style in their solid axle trucks

fsjtrash
05-16-2007, 02:08 AM
That zebra jeep is killer. Where's the rest of your photos?

Green Mountain ZJ
09-12-2007, 11:29 AM
I read about your issues when you pushed the front axle forward. I ran into a similar one on the anti-sway bar mounts. The mount really needs to be moved towards the spring anyways to correct the angles. You can do this by redrilling the mount as close to the spring as you feel safe in doing. Then you may be able to trim off the part of the mount that is rubbing. I think this will work as it is what I did. I did move my spring mounts over the axle .75" and have Clayton's high clearance bracket so this may have allowed the movement but you may be able to do something similar. Just a thought.

Skyline
09-12-2007, 11:42 AM
Well, if anything, I need to weld on longer sway bar mounts, like what JKS sells. But now that I've installed the drop pitman arm, and moved the axle back a little, it's not nearly as much of a problem.

macka
09-16-2007, 11:37 PM
I'm rebuilding my junkyard 242. Replacing all the bearings for good measure. Anyone know how to get this bearing out without damaging the case? I looks like the hole to the side is designed to pry it up, but I can't seem to budge it.

Edit: I tried the only pilot bearing puller I could find around here and it does not grab the bearing. It opens about 1/8" too little. Is the only way to do this with Jeep Special tool MD998346???

I drilled a hole in a hunk of 2x8 and used a piece of delrin rod to drive it through. I used my BF C clamp to apply pressure to the piece of delrin rod. It resisted a little at first then slid out.

Skyline
09-17-2007, 09:56 AM
I ended up buying the factory tool and it worked like a charm. It did not look anything like the tool in the FSM, but it did look very much like the blind bearing puller Snap On sells....probably a lot cheaper though. I don't know if the Snap On tool would work or not. The trick, is that if you use a blind bearing puller, it must be exactly the right size, and have fairly sharp claws. I had previously tried a very similar puller I had rented, and had no luck at all. The tool pictured in the FSM looks like a much better idea, but I guess it's no longer available. Anyway, job done.