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c473
05-31-2006, 07:19 PM
Current State:
1503

Drivetrain is stock:
5.9
46RE
249
D30 3.73 open
D44a 3.73 LS

Conglomeration of used stuff off the net (usual places):

37x12.50 15 MT/Rs
15x8 steel
Centramatic wheel balancers
Bushwacker Cutout flares

Front:
Long radius arms
Rubicon Express 1660 extra H.D. track bar and bracket
JKS quicker disconects
6.5" XJ coils

Rear:
Long arm / Torque arm
JKS adjustable track bar
4.5" ZJ coils

Answers to immediate questions I know are coming:

Making the 37s fit on a 5.5/4.5" lift required several things:
1065
1066

Since I currently have short arms, articulation is limited and requires less trimming. Ineeded to move the rear wall of the front fenderwells about two inches aft to allow stuffing/turning without rubbing. I fully intend on cutting and moving more once the long arms are on.


The long arms are in process:
1068
1067

The axles are on the way out as well:

c473
05-31-2006, 07:23 PM
Replacing stock axles:

D30HP 4.56 Lock Right, Rubicon Express drag link/tire rod
(it'll have to do till I secure a KPD60)

14 (soon to be 13) Bolt 10.5" Detroit Locker, Ruffstuff brackets, Eldo calipers, K20 front rotors.

1069

1070

JpRngr
05-31-2006, 08:45 PM
So, what does Zerstoren mean?


BTW, the Jeep looks good.

MUDDTRACKS
05-31-2006, 09:53 PM
Look's like a great start.

:smt023

NAFTEL
05-31-2006, 10:22 PM
what model did you order the cut out flares from? cause i compared some from an xj and they didn;t seem to viable

MBATF
05-31-2006, 10:28 PM
what anmos do those use with??? :smt067

DJJordache
05-31-2006, 11:05 PM
So, what does Zerstoren mean?

Destroy:D looks kewl

c473
06-03-2006, 03:07 PM
what model did you order the cut out flares from? cause i compared some from an xj and they didn;t seem to viable
Cutout Flares for 4 door XJ. It requires plenty of trimming (wheel wells and flares). I took pics during installation and will write it up next week.

The joints are 2.5" johhny joints with 1.25" studs. I ordered them along with tube adapters and jam nuts from Polyperformance.

Ammunition is for a Steyr M95 in 8.56R. Cheap rifle that I can throw in the back when heading off grid for any length of time. Wouldn't bother me if it got confiscated by some clueless law enforcement type (nearly impossibe to get it back). "end rant".:smt109

Cue-Ball
06-03-2006, 09:12 PM
Would love to see the pix of the cutout flare install. Always love the way those look.

c473
06-03-2006, 09:51 PM
Sneak preview:
1085

1086

matts96zj
06-04-2006, 06:32 PM
ur specs seem amazing similar to my 5.9 lol!!! & your bw's came out much nicer than mine too... good job!!

aresridingflat
06-07-2006, 12:07 PM
Just have to say I saw this thing on sunday, and it looks real good...

Will look even better with a certain arb on it...

Will

c473
06-14-2006, 10:25 AM
As of today:

ARB front bumper mounted.
Unibody frame rails sleeved
1" x 1/4" wall tubing ~3.5" welded in lateraly through frame
3"x4" C channel sleeve with 1/2" bolts through tubing.

Stock length control arms off
Long control arms tacked, ready to locate brackets

Skyline
06-14-2006, 11:01 AM
You project ZJ looks absolutely awesome. I love the look of the Bushwacker flares. Definately on my list of things to do to my ZJ.

If you are interested in selling your non-stock short arms, send me a PM. I am going to do a short arm 4.5 in lift.

Thanks,
Steve

c473
06-14-2006, 10:08 PM
Almost finished mock-up of the front control arm and bracket:

1137

Have the rest of the bracketry cut, just need to drill the holes and tack them in.
I'll do the other side tomorrow and finish the crossmember. Then it's on to the rear.

joe13205
07-11-2006, 01:17 PM
where did you get your joints and the threaded end the stud goes into? Nevermind i see it

ILikeMud
07-11-2006, 01:44 PM
Looks sweet.

c473
07-14-2006, 09:09 PM
I spent a lot of time laying under the jeep trying to decide the best place to put everything. At first, I wanted to have the arms mounted aft of the crossmember (for less longitudinal travel). Then I noticed that if the joints were mouned to the crossmember, they were pretty close to the front drive-shaft double-cardan (which would give the least change of d/s length during suspension travel and allow for some gusseting). It turns out that there is ~0.1 inch difference (tire longitudinal displacement) with the shorter arm so no big loss. When I bolted an arm to the axle, the frame end wanted to be inboard of the frame rail (center of joint displaced ~4 inches from frame-rail centerline). For now, I sliced up the stock crossmember to make up the center section of the new crossmember (I'll change it out when I work on a skid).

1197

For the upper arm, I took one of the JKS arms I had laying around and bolted it to the axle. When I bolted a piece of 1/4 inch plate on either side of the frame end, it fit nicely on the lower arm (welded on opposite corners of the lower arm).

1198

Zip off the stock lower frame mounts and the front is done.

For the rear, I've decided to go with a torque arm setup.

Two lower links
Torque arm
Track bar

At first, I was going to try and save the stock exhaust, but it was forcing me to compromise the frame mount locations for the links and the torque-arm. So out came the sawzall.
After a couple measurements I got online and orderd up some parts, here's what I ended up with.

1199

2 1/2 inch to 3 inch adapter

3 inch inlet/outlet with o2 mounting

3 inch inlet/outlet series 40 flowmaster

and about a foot of 3 inch pipe.

It sounds "really" loud without a tailpipe (not as loud as the two behind my high compression 350 with no tailpipes, it sets off car alarms), not to the point that I'm annoyed, but it could get annoying to anyone behind me on a trail. So I will put a tailpipe on.

This weekend I hope to have the rear links built and mounted and at least have the torque arm tacked up (Polyperformance "helped" me out by sending a tube adapter for 3/4" thread instead of the 5/8" that I orderd (for the rod-end through bolt part of the torque arm)).

Then it will be time to tear it all apart for finish welding (another weekend).
Hopefully I'll have enough time to tweak everyting before GSE:)

c473
07-16-2006, 09:24 PM
Things that are now crossed off the list:

Rear control arm frame-brackets located and tacked.
I placed the pivot point at the forward U-joint to minimize d/s movement (longitudinaly).

1204

Rear control arms cut to length.
It looks like I can raise the axle-bracket hole about an inch (flatter arm)

Rear crossmember tacked in
I made it removable incase I need to change the geometry of the torque arm which will be just to the left of the driveshaft.

1205

Truss bent up for the 44A
I'll add some gussets before I weld it on.

1206

25% done with rear diff skid/torque arm attach point.
Doesn't look like much yet, but it will look correct soon :smt003

1207

canadian_driver
07-25-2006, 10:51 PM
got anymore pictures of the flares going on?

c473
08-06-2006, 09:01 PM
I'm pretty sure I have more pics of the fender flare install, I'll dig them up and resize them.

More progress this weekend. I got the diff. skid/torque arm mount mostly finsihed, and the lower bar fabbed up.

1272

The forward torque-arm mount is done and tacked in. Also finished the truss.

1273

c473
08-11-2006, 09:50 PM
Can't find pics of the rear flares being installed. Here are more of the front:

I first held up the flare with the front lower edge aligned with the lower edge of the side marker light, ant the rear lower edge at the rocker seam.

1348

First cut was just abover where it transitions from vertical to slope

1343

With the flare lined up with the bottom edge at the rocker seam, you can see where it still needs to be trimmed. I left about a 1/2 inch gap between the fender and the flare.

1345

Once the sheetmetal is out of the way, you can drill and screw the flare on. This pic shows that the forward rocker plastic needs to be trimmed. Also notice the trimmed front bumper cover.

1346

Sure makes 33s look small, I'll bet 37s would look much better :D
Here you can see the proximity of the pinch seam to the 37s. The first job was to beat the seam flat. Then I had to section about 2 inches out of the sheet metal "frame brace" and push the whole section below the flare back for clearance.

1347

It doesn't rub at full flex with the little arms. I'll probably cut the whole section out and move it back a couple inches once I finish the long arms.

Tonight, I finished most of the torque arm. All it's mounts are fabed and finish welded. Only need to locate the rear of the diff skid with some short staps and the axle can go back in.

BMRisko
08-11-2006, 10:13 PM
Are you not afraid of popping the heim out of its cage given its current mounting orientation at the crossmember?

OverkillZJ
08-11-2006, 10:29 PM
Are you not afraid of popping the heim out of its cage given its current mounting orientation at the crossmember?

I was thinking the EXACT same thing as soon as I looked at that. At least put some very large washers in case that heim blows out, which they can, so the washer catches after about 1/4". People do it on steering a lot just incase.

c473
08-11-2006, 11:21 PM
The heim only reacts axle torque, it does not locate the axle. The way it's monted, all torque (acceleration and braking) act parallel to the shank. It's a 3/4" shank with a 5/8 bolt through it into the torque arm. The heim is rated for 40,590 lbs. Should not be a problem. Once location of everything is finalized, I'll put a safey loop (aircraft cable) around the arm, which would keep it from splitting the unibody down the middle (if the heim broke:) )

EMTimZJ
08-12-2006, 01:00 AM
The heim only reacts axle torque, it does not locate the axle. The way it's monted, all torque (acceleration and braking) act parallel to the shank. It's a 3/4" shank with a 5/8 bolt through it into the torque arm. The heim is rated for 40,590 lbs. Should not be a problem. Once location of everything is finalized, I'll put a safey loop (aircraft cable) around the arm, which would keep it from splitting the unibody down the middle (if the heim broke:) )

Hopefully it works, but I doubt it is rated at 40,590 lbs side loaded like that.

c473
08-12-2006, 06:08 AM
There is no side load.

One end of the torque arm is monted rigidly to the axle (adjusting the length of one leg will adjust pinion angle). The other end (at the heim) only reacts torque. It does not locate the axle longitudnaly (fore and aft) which is handled by the lower links, nor does it locate the axle laterally (side to side) wich is handled by the track bar. The system is designed so that the instant center is located "nearly" coincient with the forward u-joint of the rear driveshaft.

As the axle moves down, the bracket that holds the heim will rotate aft keeping the heim "through bolt" centered (no offset misalignment). When the axle rotates about the longitudinal axis (one tire up and the other tire down), the throughbolt rotates within the heim. There is no sideload ;) . What this does is remove one of the constraints from the suspension and gets rid of bind.

A three link would be similar, but all-three links are still reacting torque. Splitting the job allows the lower links to be free of torque reaction, which would allow rasing the axle side to the axle centerline for additional clearance (which I'll do on the 14-bolt). Now, the lower links only deliver driving and braking accelerations to the chassis. Using this setup requires retaining the track bar, which does a much better job at locating the axle lateraly than using single/double triangulated links.

With a triangulated setup, the links are reacting torque, sideload, and delivering driving/braking inputs. I've driven triangulated setups with no track bar and I can feel the axle straining in hard turns at speed. Incorrectly (for road handling) designed setups induce oversteer in a non-linear fashion (which adds uncertainty for the driver, not sure how much you'll get and when). This does not affect anything at rock crawling speeds, but I for one spend way more time onroad (as do the majority of rigs out there).

I wanted a suspension that handled better than stock (while lifted with big tires) and allowed flex without bind (working on something for the radius arms up front:cool: ). I think this is it.

canadian_driver
08-12-2006, 06:47 PM
thanks for the flare install pictures, what the rear harder? i probably should just try it and find out formyself, doesnt look that hard at all

nate
08-12-2006, 06:57 PM
I don't understand what the reason for that "torque bar" is?

To me, that looks like a traction bar setup that would be used on a leaf spring ring.

So you have 2 lowers, 2 uppers and that torque bar??

Your front arms are WAY long!. I'd like to make mine about that long, but it'd take too much work to be worth it. Mine are just at the front of where the subframe starts on your setup.

c473
08-12-2006, 07:09 PM
The rear flares took twice as long to install. Same process, cut, fit, trim, cut, trim, fit....I need to adjust one side, I'll take more pics when I do it.


The torque arm eliminates the need for the upper bars. Without the upper bars, the suspension will rotate about the longitudinal axis more freely.

c473
08-13-2006, 09:37 PM
Another weekend gone.

Here's anothe shot of the torque arm.

1367

I finished reinstalling the axle today. Now I'm down to setting the pinion angle and finishing the arm (need to fit the forward portion of the upper bar and fit a brace or two between the upper and lower). It looks like I'll have to clearance the floor pan slightly. With the axle jacked to the bump stops (holding jeep weight) it just clears, so a little work with the hammer/dolly now will avoid those annoying self-clearancing noises later. Then it's time to pull it all off and finsh weld everything.

Jeeperoni91
08-13-2006, 10:23 PM
:smt060 nice cat nip:smt028

c473
08-16-2006, 09:47 PM
Aug. 16 and the fabrication work is done. This weekend, every thing comes off for finish welding and painting.

Skyline
08-16-2006, 10:36 PM
So let me get this strait: The only thing that will prevent the rear axle from twisting rearward, and allowing both springs to fly off their perches is that "torque bar"???? And a single heim joint???
Assuming that heim is really adequate for the loads, I would think that to handle its rated load it would have to be mounted into the arm instead of that bracket, with all the pressure put into the closed loop of the heim; not with all the pressure looking to bust the swivel out of the loop.You say that the fore-aft positioning of the rear axle is handled by the lower arms, but in reality, it takes upper AND lower arms to position an axle. If you have any doubt about the huge loads that need to be tamed by the UCAs, just ask how many people have torn the stock UCA mounts from their unibodies; then ask them what size tires they were running.You'd better carry a whole bunch of them heim joints on your first time wheeling the thing.Outstanding looking rig BTW.

c473
08-16-2006, 11:58 PM
You are correct. The the heim joint reacts the torque moment from the axle. The heim joint is located ~4 feet from the axle centerline. Forgive the simplicity of the folowing analysis, it's late and I'm starting a new program in the morning (31 flights, 75 flight hours of performance testing), so I might miss something. Please let me now if there is an error in my logic.


Gear ratios:
1st gear 2.45
Low Range 2.72
Axle 3.73

Mechanical ratio 24.85672

It's an auto, so I'll assume the torque converter will triple torque (instanteously, not continuous), it's probably less than that, but this is conservative.

Final ratio 74.6 (worst case crawling, not shock loading)

The 5.9 is rated at 350 lb-ft.

So, roughly 26,000 lb-ft torque (probably closer to 17K, but we are being conservative)

The torque reaction is 4 feet away, so that's about 6,500 lb at the heim.

Based on that, I don't think there should be a problem with the heim joint. If we consider shock loading, I believe the axles would snap before the heim fails.

On your other point. All forces will act longituinally to the shank of the heim (trying to pull the nut through the bracket). The heim bracket is mounted with a 9/16" bolt througha poly bushing. As the suspension cylces, the forward portion of the torque arm will move fore and aft slightly (less than an inch either way iircc). this movement is do to the fact that the instant center is located below the ball of the heim. If you draw a line verticaly through the heim, the IC will be where the line crosses the lower bars. Which in this case is slightly above and ahead of the pivot points of the johnyjoints. I'm trying to keep the drive shaft from changing length (as much as possible) during suspension cycling.

During acceleration, the lower arms are in compression. You can keep the axle located longitudinaly by having upper pinned llinks (conventional four link), which will be in tension, or by using a torque arm to react only the torque (which can not transmit longitudnal forces, one end is fixed to the axle and the other end is double jointed to allow slight fore and aft movement to prevent binding). When you seperate the jobs in this way, you could put the lower link mounts above teh axle centerline if you wanted to, this would increase the moment on the heim, but you could do it if you wanted to. This really isn't a new concept. It's been in use in one form or another almost since the begining of the automobile. The most current examples would be late modle Camaro's and Mustang's.

Here are a couple good pics and explanations:

http://www.unbalancedengineering.com/Camaro/TA/

http://www.swracecars.com/camaro_boltOn.asp

http://www.bmrfabrication.com/F-bodySuspension.htm#torquearms

Note that the stock setup (and some of the aftermarket), use a sliding poly bushing at the forward mount.

chadjans
08-17-2006, 12:10 AM
Why does your setup remind me of watching Ron make his jeep act like a dog ready to pounce in the Rustic In n parking lot? Those that were there will know what I am talking about.

Why would you not just link the damm thing like normal? Your torque arm is not neccessary. Four links and be done with it.

c473
08-17-2006, 12:19 AM
Normal is boring. There's no place to legally go wheeling down here, so it's not like I'm pressed for time. I just need to get it done for GSE. Plus I wanted to have room for my exhaust:D

AgitatedPancake
08-17-2006, 03:57 AM
you gotta tell me how your d30/44a combo hold up to those 37's. Im quite interested to see how they hold up to severe wheeling.

c473
08-17-2006, 06:04 AM
Not expected to hold up at all. I wanted to try out the geometry on a throw away first. I'm on the lookout for a D60 front to go with the 14bolt.

Skyline
08-17-2006, 10:49 AM
You are correct. The the heim joint reacts the torque moment from the axle. The heim joint is located ~4 feet from the axle centerline. Forgive the simplicity of the folowing analysis, it's late and I'm starting a new program in the morning (31 flights, 75 flight hours of performance testing), so I might miss something. Please let me now if there is an error in my logic.


Gear ratios:
1st gear 2.45
Low Range 2.72
Axle 3.73

Mechanical ratio 24.85672

It's an auto, so I'll assume the torque converter will triple torque (instanteously, not continuous), it's probably less than that, but this is conservative.

Final ratio 74.6 (worst case crawling, not shock loading)

The 5.9 is rated at 350 lb-ft.

So, roughly 26,000 lb-ft torque (probably closer to 17K, but we are being conservative)

The torque reaction is 4 feet away, so that's about 6,500 lb at the heim.

Based on that, I don't think there should be a problem with the heim joint. If we consider shock loading, I believe the axles would snap before the heim fails.

On your other point. All forces will act longituinally to the shank of the heim (trying to pull the nut through the bracket). The heim bracket is mounted with a 9/16" bolt througha poly bushing. As the suspension cylces, the forward portion of the torque arm will move fore and aft slightly (less than an inch either way iircc). this movement is do to the fact that the instant center is located below the ball of the heim. If you draw a line verticaly through the heim, the IC will be where the line crosses the lower bars. Which in this case is slightly above and ahead of the pivot points of the johnyjoints. I'm trying to keep the drive shaft from changing length (as much as possible) during suspension cycling.

During acceleration, the lower arms are in compression. You can keep the axle located longitudinaly by having upper pinned llinks (conventional four link), which will be in tension, or by using a torque arm to react only the torque (which can not transmit longitudnal forces, one end is fixed to the axle and the other end is double jointed to allow slight fore and aft movement to prevent binding). When you seperate the jobs in this way, you could put the lower link mounts above teh axle centerline if you wanted to, this would increase the moment on the heim, but you could do it if you wanted to. This really isn't a new concept. It's been in use in one form or another almost since the begining of the automobile. The most current examples would be late modle Camaro's and Mustang's.

Here are a couple good pics and explanations:

http://www.unbalancedengineering.com/Camaro/TA/

http://www.swracecars.com/camaro_boltOn.asp

http://www.bmrfabrication.com/F-bodySuspension.htm#torquearms

Note that the stock setup (and some of the aftermarket), use a sliding poly bushing at the forward mount.
I took a look at those links, and there are two common threads there: 1] All those designs use ladder bars that attach at two points on the axle to control the twist where you only have the lower links and the single upper bar. 2] The heim joints are all mounted longitudinally, as opposed to your vertically in your set up.Keep in mind that engine torque is not the only force you will be dealing with here; you will also encounter all sorts of loads as you bounce on the rocks.

c473
08-17-2006, 06:13 PM
Take a look at the photo in post #33. Right now, that upper bar of the torque arm, has been fitted and tack welded to the lower bar. I added a brace near the axle end (between the two bars). I also added some 1/8" sheet between the upper and lower bars. So this, in essence, is a "ladder bar" (a term normaly used for links of this type when two are used, locating the axle longitudinaly and reacting torque, but in those applications the forward end is fixed to the chassis and you would want the heim mounted in the fashion you describe). I am using a solid heim on the upper bar at the axle (pinion angle adjustment), and the lower bar has a piece of 1.25" x .375" wall tube welded to it.

Again, the forward heim only reacts torque, and always along the shank of the heim.

This is not a new design, nor the first I've done (first for a 4x though).

c473
08-27-2006, 10:29 PM
Putting it all back together.

Nearly completed all the finish welding. I ran out of gas with about 6" of welding left.

1448

Removing the stock arm mounts is a pain. Went through one disk on each of the lower mounts. I can still taste steel.


Bolted in the frame sleeves (will weld them later this week) and the TC crossmember.

chadjans
08-27-2006, 11:02 PM
I know it is probably mentioned above but how are you controlling laterial movement on the rear axle? With the torque arm?

Chad

EMTimZJ
08-27-2006, 11:12 PM
Not sure if it will be kept for the final design, but I see a rear TB in some of the earlier photos.

-Tim.

chadjans
08-28-2006, 02:29 AM
Don't see any rear uppers either....

c473
08-28-2006, 04:40 AM
Track bar's are retained. I plan to build some cross bracing (front and rear) to tighten up the stock frame-mounts.

The torque arm eliminates the need for rear upper-bars.

c473
09-04-2006, 09:36 PM
Pulled the heap out of the garage today. Took about 2 and half months to finish. The hardest part (as with everyone else I assume) was getting the time in between family obligations to work on it.

Drove around the block, and I'm happy so far (nothing fell off and none of the tires ate sheetmetal). Later this week I'll slap on some extended brake lines and go flex it.

I will be moving both axles out another inch or two to gain more clearnce while turning and for looks on the rear (need to trim the gas tank skid plate and modify track bar brackets so this might wait till the 60 and the 14 go in).

1501

1502

canadian_driver
09-04-2006, 10:09 PM
looks good, wanna make one for me? lol

ogdak
09-05-2006, 12:13 PM
Very much interested to see some detailed pics off the rear while flexing.
Fast going project btw, nice.

Skyline
10-18-2006, 11:47 AM
Any chance you can post some close up pics of the rear fender flare install you did? I am thinking about going this route, and I'd like to see how/where you did the trimming in the rear, and what the end result looks like up close.

Thanks

MoonWorks
10-18-2006, 08:34 PM
You didn't make it to GSE and haven't posted in over a month. What's up? I hope you got your pinion angle right on the first shot b/c that heim joint on top of your 14b isn't going to allow you much adjustability.

c473
05-29-2007, 07:45 PM
Didn't make GSE. My spotter backed out at the last minute, my spare wasn't mounted in time, the winch wouldn't cooperate, there was a plague of locust! It's not my fault!!!!!!!!!!!!:D


Still haven't done any serious off-road with it. I'll get some flex shots soon. It's not the ultimate flex monster, but what it does, it does without bind (at the rear). I've got some ideas for the front radius arms that I'll try out this summer. It does great on the highway, over 80 and feels stable. With both bars disconnected, it gets twisty on my pseudo rock-garden. Still haven't been able to 'pop' that rod end. I'll pulled the 14-bolt out of the corner yesterday and am still looking for that D60 front.

c473
08-22-2009, 06:24 PM
It works. Nothing broke. Travel is shock limited, new ones will be installed with the new axles. Here are some poser pics from a half day trip.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f245/c473/DSC01605.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f245/c473/DSC01616.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f245/c473/DSC01620-1.jpg

slim616
08-23-2009, 10:53 AM
damn, it took you over two years to try that thing offroad?

c473
08-23-2009, 12:41 PM
nope. Just took that long to post the pics. Those were taken back in mid Spring 08. Other projects had taken priority, but now that it's back near the top of the list I'm looking for a front 60 and will begin the swap(60 front 14 rear) this Fall.

Derek33
08-23-2009, 12:52 PM
Jeeps looking great.