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Z
02-27-2006, 03:05 PM
Searched a bit and didn't find this specific problem described...

While 'wheeling this past weekend my steering started to get pretty vague. What used to take 1/4 turn of the steering wheel now takes 3/8ths or 1/2 or a turn. The wheels go where I want them to and it takes no more effort (steering wheel isn't hard to turn), it just takes longer to make the turn. The effect is almost like the tie rod is bent.

I've had pumps go out and they just make it harder to turn the steering wheel, so it doesn't seem to be the pump. We checked all the linkages, nothing's worn or bent.

Also, the dead spot in the center is slightly larger that it has been - I thought it was a bad alignment, but now I suspect its part of the overall problem.

Since it's not the pump, linkages or gearbox bolts, I guess it can only be 2 things - the gearbox or the shaft coming from the steering wheel.

Any thoughts anyone?

Snowman
02-27-2006, 03:12 PM
I had the same problem in Moab. Complained to my 4 wheel place. They checked the alignment and tightened the stearing gear box. It got worse, then after about a week, as I was getting on the freeway, the ZJ lost all stearing. A cotter pin had broken and the bolt fallen out. I tied the arms together with wire and drove 4 blocks to another shop that repaced the bolt at no charge. Back to the 4 wheel place where they put in the right bolt and the cotter pin. Now when I go there, they always check all the stearing components, even the ones that they didn't work on.

BigDaveZJ
02-27-2006, 03:32 PM
Tom,
Go over the ears on the steering box very carefully. What you're describing is very similar to what is going on with mine right now and one of the ears on the box is developing a crack.

Z
02-27-2006, 03:47 PM
Tom,
Go over the ears on the steering box very carefully. What you're describing is very similar to what is going on with mine right now and one of the ears on the box is developing a crack.

Dave - I presume you mean mounting bolt holes?

BigDaveZJ
02-27-2006, 05:59 PM
Dave - I presume you mean mounting bolt holes?

You got it!

Snowman
02-27-2006, 06:16 PM
You may want to add a steering gear brace from Kevin's to strenghten the steering gear mount.

OverkillZJ
02-27-2006, 06:24 PM
I'd also check the box for cracks, but the symptoms are pretty much the same with when I blew my box (by blew it just got sloppy beyond what I considered safe).

Z
02-27-2006, 06:42 PM
Okay, because I'm too lazy to search for this, where's a good place for a replacement gear box? My current gearbox is a junkyard replacement which lasted all of 2 years. I'd like a little more quality this time.

ATL ZJ
02-27-2006, 07:01 PM
Make sure your pitman arm is tight... Mine had loosened up after a few wheeling trips and I found the nut holding mine onto the shaft to be just past finger tight last week :D.

BigDaveZJ
02-27-2006, 08:07 PM
Okay, because I'm too lazy to search for this, where's a good place for a replacement gear box? My current gearbox is a junkyard replacement which lasted all of 2 years. I'd like a little more quality this time.

Check out the PSC 621M or the MR. The MR is tapped for hydro assist, the M is not IIRC. Both are 4 bolt boxes (whereas the stock one is 3) so the mount itself will be stronger. They have also made some internal upgrades to strengthen the power of the box.

OverkillZJ
02-27-2006, 08:41 PM
2 years is more than I've gotten out of my Autozone replacments. I just got myself into the habbit of replacing it under lifetime warranty after every single wheeling season.

I'd look into PSC, it really is comporable with replacing w/ a stock box!

snarfer86
02-27-2006, 10:48 PM
could be the track bar or the track bar bracket, mine had that feeling for a while once i tightened it back up it was amazingly responsive compared to what i was used to.

OverkillZJ
02-27-2006, 10:56 PM
I thought about that, the track bar bolt hole wallows out too. Dinitely something to look at. I had to tack and grind down a crack in my bolt hole.

Z
02-27-2006, 11:34 PM
could be the track bar or the track bar bracket, mine had that feeling for a while once i tightened it back up it was amazingly responsive compared to what i was used to.

Good information to include in this post for future searches, but that's the first thing we checked. There is no (improper) movement in any of the linkages, mounting holes, tie rod ends, etc.

For future searches, PSC's web site has changed, it's now:
http://www.pscmotorsports.com/index.php?cPath=21_29_54_58&osCsid=872bb9484013c43c462a2fe251a6abb0

Firestarter
03-09-2006, 01:18 PM
was this problem ever resolved?

Z
03-09-2006, 03:12 PM
was this problem ever resolved?
Unfortunately no. I did replace with a PSC gear box but the dead spot in the center remains. I haven't been 'wheeling to determine if I would still need to oversteer on obstacles.

So, at this point, everything has been checked from the wheels to the gearbox. As far as I can determine, that leaves only 2 things: 1). alignment or 2). the shaft connecting the steeringwheel to the gearbox.

I'll take it to a reputable 4x4 shop and overpay to have this fixed once and for all.

I'm not unhappy that I upgraded to the PSC box, though. And I probably will throw Kevin's brace on there one of these days.

BigDaveZJ
03-09-2006, 04:06 PM
Tom,
I'll be putting on the PSC box and fabbing up a brace here pretty soon if you want to check it out. If we go in on the metal it'll be cheaper for each of us.

RiPPiNiTuP7
03-10-2006, 08:40 AM
I'll take it to a reputable 4x4 shop and overpay to have this fixed once and for all.

well if you decide to go this route make sure to post what the outcome was, it seems alot of people complain about the steering with their zj's...including myself.

Firestarter
03-10-2006, 12:28 PM
well if you decide to go this route make sure to post what the outcome was, it seems alot of people complain about the steering with their zj's...including myself.

x2, i have the EXACT same problem with my '02 WJ. although i havent wheeled it in a while, it seems like it's been a gradual problem. Had it at the stealer for a check on the alignment and then asked about a shot steering box , they said both checked out to be fine :shake:

when i get back to Jersey on the 19th i'm going to have a friend steer the wheel while i am underneath checking to see if any nuts/bolts are loose aside from the ones in my head :smt081

N2Deep
03-14-2006, 12:44 PM
Had similar issues with my steering and just swapped in Kevin's Trackbar conversion from stock bracket and RE Trackbar. WOW what a difference!! My steering is back and it feels safe driving it again. I can even feel comfortable letting someone else drive it now. I also got rid of Rusty's crappy shocks and when with MX6 adjustables. What a difference in ride quality - I guess you get what you pay for.

RiPPiNiTuP7
03-14-2006, 01:56 PM
while on the subject of steering boxes and whatnot, does anyone know the size of the nut holding the pitman arm on?

nate
03-14-2006, 03:48 PM
Off the top of my head, I believe it's 1 5/16". It's the same size as one of the ball joint nuts... I think lowers.

N2Deep
03-14-2006, 11:52 PM
I used a 32MM but it was a very tight fit.


while on the subject of steering boxes and whatnot, does anyone know the size of the nut holding the pitman arm on?

ATL ZJ
03-15-2006, 12:52 AM
while on the subject of steering boxes and whatnot, does anyone know the size of the nut holding the pitman arm on?

34mm.

Z
03-27-2006, 10:35 PM
Update. Still not fixed. Took it to High Country Performance 4x4, they checked out all the obvious stuff (including the steering wheel -> gearbox shaft) and recommended replacing some shot bushings, tie rod ends and bearings. I replaced the bearings (saving myself $440) and let High Country do the rest. After replacing all this stuff AND putting in the PSC pump, I still have the dead spot. I also ordered a 4 wheel alignment from High Country, but I think they're holding off on that in case more stuff needs to be replaced. About the only thing we can think of now is a (subframe?) break that's allowing flex where flex shouldn't be allowed.

Hmmm, maybe I should suggest a quick-n-dirty front end alignment to see if they can affect the vague steering.

BigDaveZJ
03-27-2006, 11:46 PM
Tom,
How about the mount for your front bumper? Is that nice and tight? I have a theory that a lot of the steering issues associated with vague steering have to do with a weak front x-member. Have you gotten anywhere on your steering box brace? I'm looking to start mine here soon.

Z
03-28-2006, 08:49 PM
Tom,
How about the mount for your front bumper? Is that nice and tight? I have a theory that a lot of the steering issues associated with vague steering have to do with a weak front x-member. Have you gotten anywhere on your steering box brace? I'm looking to start mine here soon.

Hmmm, that might be a place to look.

Regarding the steering box brace, I think I'm just going to order one from Kevin - his web site has nice pictures which basically tell me how to create one for myself, but then I'd be stealing his idea. I'll just have him deliver it at GSW and won't have to pay shipping.

BigDaveZJ
03-28-2006, 11:54 PM
Tom,
I just got my box in today, and still had the same dead spot as before, but was actually able to narrow it down now more because the box wasn't flexing anymore. My trackbar bushings are pretty much shot, the axle moves about 1/2" laterally under the vehicle when turning back and forth. I'd guess you guys would've checked that already, but wanted to be sure.

And if you change your mind on the steering brace, let me know. This is what I'm going to be doing: http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=54500&highlight=steering+brace I'll probably have to buy enough steel to make 3 or 4 of these, and will probably make one for Pam's ZJ while I'm at it, so let me know.

nate
03-29-2006, 01:45 AM
Yeah 1 5/16" is 33.3mm so I can see how 34mm would fit.


34mm.

Z
03-29-2006, 08:34 AM
Hey Dave, just had another look at Kevin's site - (as I'm sure you know) his solution is the same as that write-up and he doesn't actually offer a 4.0L solution. So, I'm in. I'm on-call at work for the next 2 weekends - can we do this on the 16th? I'd probably also tackle adding the 4th bolt to my PSC at that time. Do you have a welder now, or will you be doing the welding at CnCs?

By the way, do you know if the PSC gearbox allows for adjustments?

BigDaveZJ
03-29-2006, 12:03 PM
I don't have my schedule that far in advance, but I am supposed to be off Sundays here pretty soon so that should work. I'm going to make one for Pam at the same time too I think. And I do have a welder here now, Miller 175.

As for the 4th bolt, when I got my bolt from Fastenal I had to buy them in a 10 pack, so I have the bolt for the 4 hole too with the right threads that isn't too long where it runs into the box.

No clue on the adjustments.

Sudz
09-21-2006, 08:04 PM
While 'wheeling this past weekend my steering started to get pretty vague. What used to take 1/4 turn of the steering wheel now takes 3/8ths or 1/2 or a turn. The wheels go where I want them to and it takes no more effort (steering wheel isn't hard to turn), it just takes longer to make the turn. The effect is almost like the tie rod is bent.

fixed?

mine did the exact same thing this past weekend at GSE! - 621M has 300 miles on it - front steering components are tight - kev's trackbar conversion has less than 500 miles on it - it's def steering box related - while out on the trail sat morning, it suddenly felt like it changed ratios! - i even stopped the trail ride and commented my steering took a dump - thought i broke something - everything looks fine

the ride home on the interstate was fun

any ideas? - i've been emailing kevin at PSC for tech feedback

edit: 298 miles = highway ride down there...

Sudz
09-21-2006, 08:17 PM
our email conversation so far: (i described my symptoms and asked if the variable ratio box has anything to do with it - my 95 ZJ is not equipped with variable steering from the factory)

Kevin (PSC): There is no ratio adjustment on the box. You need to put the front of the vehicle on jack stands and see if it steers on its own when you push the steering wheel to one side or the other.

Sudz: I guess you mean give the steering wheel a spin - let go - and see if it continues to steer till it hits the stops? (while on jack stands)

Kevin (PSC) Yes unless the fluid is boiling the symptoms you describe should only happen if something is wrong with the valve


gonna give this a try tomorrow night after work

btw, Kevin has been alot of help so far - Kudos!

Z
09-21-2006, 10:35 PM
Sudz, your problem is different than mine in that my PSC started out with the dead spot. Turning the adjustment bolt fixed my problem. Your problem developed AFTER running your PSC for a while. I suppose your adjustment bolt could have come loose from PSC, you might want to check that.

Sudz
09-21-2006, 11:01 PM
yup, its weird - i don't have a dead spot at all - steering is tight / right to left / left to right - it just feels like the ratio changed bigtime all of a sudden - no differnce in the resistance at all - sucks that its a new box :confused:

tough to keep straight on the highway - its been parked since i got home from GSE

identical to this from your first post:


What used to take 1/4 turn of the steering wheel now takes 3/8ths or 1/2 or a turn. The wheels go where I want them to and it takes no more effort (steering wheel isn't hard to turn), it just takes longer to make the turn.

Z
09-21-2006, 11:14 PM
Maybe you just got a bad box from PSC? I didn't have a problem coming home on the highway, aside from the nagging thought in the back of my mind that there was something wrong with the steering and if it went out on a winding mountain road at 75 mph, I'd most likely die.

DJJordache
09-22-2006, 09:00 AM
How about the mount for your front bumper? Is that nice and tight? I have a theory that a lot of the steering issues associated with vague steering have to do with a weak front x-member. I dunno why I didn't reply to this back in the day but.... your theory is valid. I have a front mounted hidden hitch that really seemed to tighten up the "frame" after installing it, it just seemed more rigid after installing it. the whole bracket assembly on it ties into the "frame" and the radiator core support IIRC. After I noticed a difference in driving after installing it I figured something else was loose but everything was tight, so in short it strengthend up the front rigidity

the only thing that sucks about it is that the hitch portion hangs below the bumper I'm gonna cut that off and get it rewelded higher b/c sometimes having a front hitch is handy:D