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View Full Version : Disaster... CA failed smog...



I dig AU
02-20-2006, 09:34 PM
Well,

I'm poorer, and no closer. Failed smog on my 95 4.0. I've been so busy getting the tranny rebuilt, and ordering stuff for the lift, I just put the smog on the back burner. Passed twice before, should be a prob. Right? Nope.

Visual passed fine with the ML header, and 2 1/2" cat and back. K & N FIPK, and 60mm thottle body. Failed NO (or NOX?)

Here's the numbers at 15 mph.

CO2, O2, HC, CO, NO

15.1, .1, 45, .02, 720

Passed at 25 mph, with some room to spare. HC are on the high side but passing. From what I could find searching (hurried) high NO indicates high combustion chamber temps. That can be from running lean, maybe vaccum leak? What am I missing here, I'm on the high side with the HC too. The carsound cat is about 2 years old, same with the DC O2 sensor. Checked the top manifold bolts, all tight. Found one suspect vaccum line, replaced, did a recheck and failed worse. That may have been because I'd just pick up my Clayton's kit at UPS. What, 200-300 pounds? That wasn't a good idea. So my next idea would be to change ALL the vaccum lines, and perhaps do some volt meter checks on the MAP sensor. What about the 02 sensor? Would that cause this?

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated!

Jerry

JPZJ
02-21-2006, 12:13 AM
Jerry:

I don't know if this will be of any help at all...but....

I had a small vacuum leak from the hose off of the cruise control. I would have never found it except by accident. Check that hose very carefully there may be a crack there.

Otherwise I've heard you can use a small propane torch ..NOT LIT !!

Motor at idle and the propane torch open..pass the propane torch along the vacuum line in question...if there is a leak the propane gets sucked into the vacuum line ,the idle will increase. Can anyone confirm that this method works ?

I've never tried this..but read that it works

grnd93
02-21-2006, 12:21 AM
Yes, the propane trick will help find a leak.

AprilzWarrior
02-21-2006, 12:52 AM
so will brake kleen.


AW

I dig AU
02-21-2006, 01:20 AM
Otherwise I've heard you can use a small propane torch ..NOT LIT !!

Yeah, that sounds like me, I'd walk up there with it lit, and just burn the Jeep down. :D

Sounds like I have some agreement that it's probably a vaccum line.

Thanks to all. I give it a try...

Jerry

fredr1980
02-26-2006, 07:22 PM
I failed CA smog on my 97 4.0 ZJ when I first moved here from AZ a year ago.

Here are the numbers from the VIR...
------- CO2(%)- O2(%) - HC(PPM) - CO(%) - NO (PPM) - Results
15MPH - 13.80 - 1.00 ---- 47 ------ 0.38 ---- 992 ------ FAIL
25MPH - 13.80 - 0.98 ---- 43 ------ 0.35 ---- 822 ------ FAIL

I didn't get any trouble codes so the shop said that it was either the cat or the O2 sensors and that the engine probably needed to be decarbonized. I replaced both of the sensors first and it failed again so I ended up having to also replace the OEM cat with a CARB certified cat ($150 more than normal 49 state cat), did a full tune up (wires, plugs, cap, rotor, and I put my stock air box back) and barely passed the third time. What pissed me off the most was that my girlfriends truck (94 Isuzu Rodeo) Passed the first time with NO modifications, tune ups or anything, still had the 11 year old OEM cat and O2 sensors and it has a K&N filter.

Fred R.

I dig AU
02-27-2006, 12:21 AM
Things got worse. Checked for vaccum leaks, found none. Gave it to a smog shop, they found none, and recomended putting "stock factory" cat on it, and a top end clean. Thanks alot! I did have a new cat (Magnaflow/ Carsound) put on. A little better, but still failed. Funny thing, talked with 3 people who should know what's going on, get 3 different anwsers! So then, put a 180* t-stat in, new O2 sensor, new map sensor, new water temp sensor, new colder plugs (short throw), and half a tank of 100 octane race gas (6 bucks a gallon) and it failed worse. And there were a few other checks in between some of this stuff. I think the colder short throw plugs acually hurt so pulled them, put a fresh set of stock champions back in. What did I find when changing plugs back and forth? White plugs (all of them), confirming what the guy at my test only site was telling me, I'm LEAN. What was interesting was the short throw plugs were in for one day. The plugs from cyl. 1,2, and 3 were noticably whiter. Hmmm, I may yet have a vaccum leak after all. The only vaccum port that comes off the front of the manifold is to run accesories. Tee's branch off to the firewall, and the cruise control (Thanks to JPZJ for mentioning this at the beginning). I've plugged that line for the next try. Also tested the intake air temp sensor. Found it a little out of range from the table in the FSM, so that's ordered. And funniest thing (if anything can be funny in all this). My distributor is wobbling. And it's locked down tight! Touch it and you can feel it thumping inside. Nothing wrong with the cap and rotor. Must have a bent shaft, or bad bearing. So that's ordered too. It's a 3 year old reman that's in there.

If it fails this, I will resort to a bigger OBDII cat, then it's talk with the state. Not much else to change. Everyone says it shouldn't be the injectors, the computer will compensate for some restriction. I may yet pull them and clean them anyway.

:smt068 Smog nazis.

Jerry

violatedppl
02-27-2006, 01:08 AM
I am hoping for your sack they are doing all the tests offline, so it wont show up as a red flag poluter (spelling sucks I know, 14 years of public education and this is what you get)

I dig AU
02-27-2006, 08:13 AM
I am hoping for your sack they are doing all the tests offline, so it wont show up as a red flag poluter (spelling sucks I know, 14 years of public education and this is what you get)

Nope. All tests have been online. The Test Only Site guy said (I think) that I'd have to be like double on any reading that's out before I'm labeled a gross polluter. That hasn't happened. And he said there is no limit on trying. Lovely!

Krash80
02-27-2006, 10:42 AM
I know CA is bogus for emissions so I'm not sure if this is a viable option or not, but here in IL most of our testing stations don't have 4wd dyno's. So of course I intentionally go to the ones that don't have the 4wd dyno's and tell them that my ZJ is fulltime 4wd, and I even reinstall the original 249 shifter bezel. The monkeys at the shop have no clue if it's fulltime 4 or not, even though it has manual hubs, so they take my word for it and all they can do is an idle test. Over half the tests on the data printout sheet show up as "not applicable" because they couldn't perform a complete test, so the ZJ always passes with flying colors.

CurtP
02-27-2006, 12:41 PM
I know CA is bogus for emissions so I'm not sure if this is a viable option or not, but here in IL most of our testing stations don't have 4wd dyno's. So of course I intentionally go to the ones that don't have the 4wd dyno's and tell them that my ZJ is fulltime 4wd, and I even reinstall the original 249 shifter bezel. The monkeys at the shop have no clue if it's fulltime 4 or not, even though it has manual hubs, so they take my word for it and all they can do is an idle test. Over half the tests on the data printout sheet show up as "not applicable" because they couldn't perform a complete test, so the ZJ always passes with flying colors.

Good to know since I will probably have to do this soon.

violatedppl
03-02-2006, 03:21 AM
I must say that full time 4wd is a good idea. mybe its time to go find a 249 bezel to throw on their. learned me something usefull today.

LouisianaZJ
03-02-2006, 03:23 AM
what is this "smog"?? :D :D

in louisian they are happy if you have working brakes and insurance, but even that is a problem for most people

Michael
03-04-2006, 03:28 AM
i don't understand how california has all these air quality things when tijuana is 10 feet away from san diego and is filled with nothing but industrial factories and cars with no cat. not to mention the raw sewage flowing out into the pacific

DJJordache
03-04-2006, 10:24 AM
I have failed from NOX before and tried a new cat from Autozone "Marmont" brand and the numbers didn't change at all! so I got lucky and autozone let me return a slighty used cat WTF?

I then started doing a little reasearch on cats on the internet and found out to get a OBDII cat. I got a CarSound 94006 cat as seen here: http://www.car-sound.com/catalog/universal/940.aspx and after a quick 20 mile drive to break in the cat I got retested and passed with flying colors, that was over a year ago and I got retested again for this year and it passed again:D

Cue-Ball
03-04-2006, 02:02 PM
Check with 87XJ here on the boards, he has a contact at a smog place, not sure if they could help or not, but might be worth asking..

I dig AU
03-04-2006, 11:05 PM
This has gotten old fast. Still failing, and now I fail on both speed tests. My head is still realing from this. All sensors are replaced, new cat, colder t-stat, and my readings are worse. I did get a 1 month extention (I was already on the 2 month extension), then that's it, it has to be parked or fixed. I know it defies reason, but I think that colder t-stat is one thing the hurt it.

New plan. Just ordered a vacumm pump tester. I'm personally going to test all my vacumm circuits. No other way to be sure whats REALLY going on. Muffler shop said they thought they could sqeeze a second cat in line, but that's going to be the last thing I try. Time to finish the stroker! And that's what I'm doing this weekend. Finish the short block, and get the head ready for the shop to finish the valve job and bronze guides. It will be totally fresh motor (stocker has 160,000 miles).

I have 0 confidence in the smog shops, as they all look at my sheet and say it's something different. None of them agree! Voodoo magic, that's what it is...

All this extra expense has totally screwed me up on finishing my lift this spring. So I get to look at my Clayton's lift over in the corner, and hope to come up with more money to finish it. Sucks. :(

Jerry

Dragonfuel
03-04-2006, 11:29 PM
The most common reason that I have come accross is carbon build-up in the combustion chamber or intake valves that causes accumulation of gas and sauturates until its released and the o2 sensor reads rich so it leans out the mixture. Get some good quailty top end cleaner and follow the instructions. Some shops offer a fuel injection cleaning that either from wynns or BG snake oil companys and they are very good as well.
Put in you plugs at factory gap. Make sure the car is good and hot (normal operating temp.)

CurtP
03-05-2006, 10:08 AM
That colder thermostat isn't going to help you pass emissions.

OverkillZJ
03-05-2006, 10:33 AM
Why a colder tstat to "help" emmissions? Unless you were running very hot before, I can only see it hurting.

Have you cleaned the conbustion chamber?

I assume you already replaced the cat, and made sure the intake isn't cogged in any way.

I dig AU
03-05-2006, 12:10 PM
Why a colder tstat to "help" emmissions? Unless you were running very hot before, I can only see it hurting.

Have you cleaned the conbustion chamber?

I assume you already replaced the cat, and made sure the intake isn't cogged in any way.

I was told (boy have I been told!) it would help by cooling the head some (richen up the motor). But I don't think it did. There were 3 things that changed before the test when things got worse. Colder plugs, 180* stat, 100 octane gas. And it got WAY worse. I think I'm going to swap it back out today (180 T-stat) and wait for the vacuum tester this week. I have resisted doing the topend clean until now. I didn't beleive in it. I did some reading yesterday and I'm convinced. I need to try it. I can be corrected on this, but looks like to do the best job, it needs to be done at a shop where they'll hook up an injection cleaning system to my fuel rail for about 10 min. I couldn't find any viable home setups to do the same thing. I think I have some time Mon. morning to find someone to do this. Cat was replaced over a week ago. One shop is telling me that with the right conditions, the cat can be toasted in a VERY short time. But I'm not ready to call mine bad yet!

Thanks,

Jerry

napajeep
03-05-2006, 02:07 PM
Just as an FYI, the higher the octane #, the slower the fuel will burn (this is why it is more detonation resistant), this causes more unburned fuel to pass into the exhaust system, making your problem worse. I could go on for a while about how higher octane doesn't help performance without doing other things to take advantage.

The lower thermostat is also hurting your emissions readings, should put a 195 in, that will help as well.

From everything you've posted, it sounds like a lean condition at low engine speed, which indicates a vacuum leak. Since more air is passing through the motor at higher engine engine speeds, your readings are better at those speeds. Could possibly be fuel related as well (pressure good?).

Hope some of this helps.

Scott

Cue-Ball
03-05-2006, 07:30 PM
Just as an FYI, the higher the octane #, the slower the fuel will burn (this is why it is more detonation resistant), this causes more unburned fuel to pass into the exhaust system, making your problem worse. I could go on for a while about how higher octane doesn't help performance without doing other things to take advantage.

The lower thermostat is also hurting your emissions readings, should put a 195 in, that will help as well.

From everything you've posted, it sounds like a lean condition at low engine speed, which indicates a vacuum leak. Since more air is passing through the motor at higher engine engine speeds, your readings are better at those speeds. Could possibly be fuel related as well (pressure good?).

Hope some of this helps.

Scott

Hey there Scott,

Welcome to MC.

Dirk

napajeep
03-05-2006, 07:48 PM
Hey there Dirk. After viewing this site for a while, I decided to participate.

Cue-Ball
03-05-2006, 07:53 PM
Sorry to hijack the thread Jerry.

But glad to see some more of the local guys on here.

Dirk

OverkillZJ
03-05-2006, 10:10 PM
Why do you need to take it to a shop to clean the combustion chamber?

I dig AU
03-05-2006, 11:09 PM
Why do you need to take it to a shop to clean the combustion chamber?

HA!, HA! HA!,

My post has gone to 2 pages. I never done that before!

OverkillZJ: I had assumed the best job was done with those injector systems that attach to the fuel rail. After talking with my autoparts store, I bought some Seafoam, and I give that a try myself first.

Dirk: Good to see more local guys!

napajeep: I concur. I'm putting the 195* back in, running out the last of that high octane, and I'm checking that fuel pressure as well. My check gauges (fuel and vacuum) should be here by Tues.

CurtP: I agree now. It was something that someone suggested trying. I won't ever suggest it to someone esle.

DJ: Pretty sure that's the same model cat they put in. I'll check with them this week to be sure.

Thanks to all for the help. Really appriciate it!

Jerry

I dig AU
03-06-2006, 10:39 PM
The Heep pass smog today, by the skin of it's teeth. I didn't even expect it. I was just seeing if I was headed back the right direction. Put the 195 t-stat back in, filled up with 87 octane and dumped a bottle of Chevron fuel system cleaner in, and did a top end clean with Seafoam. Then drove the crap out of it for about 30 miles. Both HC and NOX just squeeked by. But it was enough. Already went by DMV and got the tags on for the year. Thankfully, I have 2 years before I revisit this again.

Again, thanks to all for the help!!!

Jerry

Dragonfuel
03-07-2006, 12:55 AM
If you are going to have the Professional system performed, be sure that they use a system that goes through the pcv hose to the intake. The engines vacuum draws the chemical into the intake manifold and helps wash everything out. The fuel rail tie in only gets about half of what you need cleaned. And put in the factory thermostat or same temp as factory.