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View Full Version : WJ Longarms...Claytons Vs. Custom



AgitatedPancake
02-10-2006, 04:28 AM
Hey guys, im seriously interested in going long arm soon, and had some thoughts. After looking closely at claytons long arm setup, i feel i could reproduce it almost identically, for a much lower cost. Also, if I were to go the route of going custom, are there any upgrades from claytons kits you could think of implimenting on a custom long arm setup?

+ For Claytons:
Ease of install
Lifetime Warrenty
Proven/Trusted Design

+ For Custom:
Costs
Experience
Using Claytons designs
Minor adjustments?


He has the arm lengths, bushing types, and so on on his website. The only things i dont know the exact lengths of are Front uppers (they dont need to be the same as claytons do they? Nothing would change..) Rear uppers (required info), and the bar going to the rear from the brace.

If anyone is running the WJ Claytons LA here, would you mind me asking you for some measurements? Also, for those of you who have build your own custom LA's before, can you give me some tips and pointers? BTW this would be for my WJ as a daily driver. I have another car I can use while the WJ is down for creation/installation.

Thanks, Greg.

ogdak
02-10-2006, 08:31 AM
I went the custom way, money reason.
And since I do not know anybody in Europe who is running LA's, I could not take measurements.
So I started to read, read, read and a lot more reading.
When I'm done and start to wheel it, we will see wether I read enough!!
Would I do it again, absolutly.

Cue-Ball
02-10-2006, 11:12 AM
AprilzWarrior just did a Clayton kit on a WJ a few months ago, it turned out sweet, I took a ride in it once he was done and talk about smooth.

AW may be able to help you with the measurements.

AgitatedPancake
02-10-2006, 04:29 PM
Good stuff, thanks for the info from both of you. I have a book...Milliken if you know it. Yeah im reading up all I can on 4 links right now (if i can understand it lol). Confusing but interesting. I think im leaning towards custom, so well see how it goes.

Cue-Ball
02-10-2006, 05:52 PM
No problem that's what we're hear for?

So you going to come out to AW's shop tomorrow?

Dirk

AgitatedPancake
02-10-2006, 06:33 PM
nah i cant, im goin up to Truckee for the day, sayin hi to my cousin and aunt/uncle for the first time in like a year. Sorry man. I would like to some other time if you guys get together though!

wonder371
02-10-2006, 07:49 PM
AprilzWarrior just did a Clayton kit on a WJ a few months ago, it turned out sweet, I took a ride in it once he was done and talk about smooth.

AW may be able to help you with the measurements.


taking rides in my WJ i see... heh.

I went with the 6" Claytons setup + an addco front sway bar (no rear sway bar). I love it. I've only put about 10-15k miles on it. But loved every second of it.


Let me know if i can do anything to help.

AgitatedPancake
02-10-2006, 09:31 PM
Thanks for being so ready to help guys, im sure ill need it =D

AgitatedPancake
02-13-2006, 05:25 AM
Mmmk guys, i dont have the actual materials yet, but I was hoping i could just get some stuff prepped for the front. What i was hoping to get some info/measurements for (in the front is)

-Actual lower arm length (from center of frame-side bolt to the end of the arm, right at where the joint screws in)

-specific Johnny Joint used? (http://www.currieenterprises.com/cestore/johnnyjoints.aspx)

-What model are the stock bushings from for the frame-side, and what size is the tube, clayton says a 2.5" rubber bushing...is that whats stock in WJ's? (sorry dont remember)

-Length of your setup (yes, i know adjustable) from bolt-bolt for front LCA.


Also, the actual arm length for the uppers would also be a nice peice of information to have...if that could be supplied as well.




Thank all of you for your info, Greg.

luvthejeep
02-13-2006, 09:45 AM
you need to ask yourself some questions before you jump into buying materials,

welding skills, fabrications skills, experence with long arm jeeps, creativity, mathmatics, macguyver skills, problem solving- it all comes into play in a project like this, im not trying to bash you in any way sying that you cant do it but ill tell you, most things on jeeps are done repeditvly to improve faults in previous designs, i whent KOR kit for my first kit and ill tell you, i saw it ands i was like "man i could have built this" but in hindsight im happy i got it because its given me the experence of how things work together, now that i have the experience i feel confident about building one myself. i recomend first time around just get a kit but thats my opinion-

btw ask anyone that bought a clatons kit if they regret it?

either way you go youll be happy but just think about it first- either way it will :smt035

AgitatedPancake
02-13-2006, 04:26 PM
Thanks for double checking my reasoning luv. I understand its not bashing its just...double checking :D. My uncle and dad will be working with me on this project. My uncle is on a ranch and has been welding for...20+ years i believe. No problem there. He is also a macguyver guy hahaha. I am decent in math, and we all are kinda creative. I think we can get this project built basically to claytons specs, but if we need to change some things im actually reading the 4-linksuspension section of a vehicle design book so i can make the adjustments correct to keep a decent ride quality. The front is a pretty simple design, and I feel I should have no problems with that. With the correct measurements, the rear seems like it should be doable, but not necessarily as easy as the front.

*Edit* and from what ive heard...everyone loves their claytons.

Kraqa
02-13-2006, 04:48 PM
keep in mind suspension dictates how well your vehicle will drive. if you screw this up you know abotu it on and off road.

It's questiosn liek what JJ shoudl i use that worries me. and Arm length. If you have done a proper amoutn of indept research and have the knwo how to design suspension, these answers shoudl come easy to you.

You building the mounts. it shoudln't matter what JJ you shoudl use. pick one that will meet your requirments and design a moutn that will work with it.

how ling do you want your arms? where can you locate the mount? what more important long arms or simplicity of mounting them? How much space do you have?

these are the questions you shoudl be askign yoru self. not what other peopel are doing. use them as visual guidlines. look at pics and figure out how YOU want it to go to gether.

If you get specific arm dimentions from somone and build your mounts difrently then your arms will not fit. I woudl read as much as you can. i'v built over 5 suspension systems 3 of which were for the same truck. my ZJ and i'm still not happy with it. but you learn more and more everytime.

luvthejeep
02-13-2006, 07:31 PM
if your worried about the rear i think your priorites are a little off as well, your front links are the most important aspect of the design, they are the main peice as to how your truck will handle- dont worry as much about the rear as you should the front-

Kraqa
02-13-2006, 08:07 PM
if your worried about the rear i think your priorites are a little off as well, your front links are the most important aspect of the design, they are the main peice as to how your truck will handle- dont worry as much about the rear as you should the front-

lol

umm i dont' think so.....

the rear is fixed. once you set it up it wont change unless you have adjustable mounts. the rear also has a imence impact on your drivability. I concider the front a no brainer its the rear end that has all the engineering. Anti-squat roll center roll axis. You can correct yoru front by turning the stearing wheel.

AgitatedPancake
02-13-2006, 10:47 PM
lol

umm i dont' think so.....

the rear is fixed. once you set it up it wont change unless you have adjustable mounts. the rear also has a imence impact on your drivability. I concider the front a no brainer its the rear end that has all the engineering. Anti-squat roll center roll axis. You can correct yoru front by turning the stearing wheel.

Exactly what I was thinking. But, im not saying im skimping on the importance of either design. The front just looked very simple with the fixed pivot point design used by claytons. In the rear, wierd things happen with different mounting points for upper and lower arms, and those wierd things can be bad if you dont know what your doing so...yeah.

chadjans
02-13-2006, 11:32 PM
Go get your hands dirty and use a http://www.yenra.com/tape-measure/tape-measure.jpg. We are not here to just give you measurements. Lay things out in your head and go visualize. Shit I laid under my rig for hours laying things out. If you are going to copy someone's design why don't you give them the courtsey of buying it instead of stealing it. I think a better question to ask here is; "what anti-squat numbers you guys getting with your built suspensions." "How tall is your roll center?" And so on...

Chad

luvthejeep
02-13-2006, 11:39 PM
cant agree with ya tonight kraqa- the proper way in my mind to do a la setup is to 4-link both f & r, if breakfast boy decides to do the clayton setup then yea no brainer but the front is as every bit important to roll axis as the rear if not moreso due to the cog residing closer to the front, teh front wil determine the streetablity of the vehicle, if that front is off or is not built well that thing wont go where the wheels point it, yes antisquat is a factor, moreso in street driving then in 4wd due to the fact of the fronts pulling at the same speed, the anti-squat can barley be felt in that situation- but whatever- its all opinion, still luv u anyways kraqa :smt058

jsteves
02-14-2006, 11:29 AM
couldn't agree with chad more! it seems there are several threads going like this and it is simply stealing from vendors that have been involved in the grand wheelin scene for longer than many grand owners on this page. design it yourself or buy it, dont steal it.

Kraqa
02-14-2006, 03:08 PM
Don't get me worng the front is very important. However i have seen some slapped together fronts wwork VERY well. the slaped together rears make the vehicle drive liek shit. If you want to get right into it we coudl start discussing anti-lift as well as anti-dive. and really complicate the front end but for the sake of a 4x4 i woudl put my money on building the rear correctly and doing a simple radius arm front. Dont; take this as gosple. I mean look at me i'm on front design number 4. but this time i'm doign it right.

For someone starting out i would focus my time on the rear. it is harder IMHO to screw up the rear then the front.

But yes the front is just as important as the rear. Hell it has to be its keeping you front loosing control and killing a school bus full of handycapped children.

nate
02-14-2006, 03:36 PM
My front arms about about 36", rears lowers are 47 I think and uppers are like 39".
I would make the fronts longer, to about 39-40" I think.

I bought a kit and put it all together/modified it where I needed. Bascially all the stuff was cut out for me and I welded it up.

AgitatedPancake
02-14-2006, 08:10 PM
Thank you very much, Nate and Kraqa.

Chad and Jsteves, I understand your standpoint as well, i just liked the idea of building my own design on the suspension, and claytons is the only one i have really seen (not going to base it on RK), and almost everyones custom suspensions are based on claytons so i figured it to be a very good starting point.

luvthejeep
02-15-2006, 07:49 PM
But yes the front is just as important as the rear. Hell it has to be its keeping you front loosing control and killing a school bus full of handycapped children.

exactly what i was thinking... just in case that happens though aim sfor the bus with regular kids in it, they might be able to tell you waht broke on it before you hit :smt045

AgitatedPancake
02-16-2006, 05:07 PM
Mmmk....guys ive been putting serious thought into how a suspension works, and ive been reading up on the suspension section on a vehicle design book I have. Some of this information is already known, but im posting it anyways for good measure. Guys tell me how this all sums up in your mind, escpecially if you know ALOT about suspension, axle roll axis...axle understeer and oversteer for the rear, etc)

If you have conflicting opinions/experience please tell me.

Front:
The front seems to be a pretty simple design with the radius arm. With this design the front pinion angle is fixed in comparison with the LCAs. Ideally the LCAs would meet up with the frame right about where the front tcase output is, so the driveshaft is always parallel to the LCAs, which in turn means the pinion angle has minimal change through articulation. If the front arms cannot extend all the way to the front of the tcase output, just make them as long as possible. There are no really specific lengths to worry about with the LCAs, just the longer the better (until you reach the tcase output) correct?

Rear:
After reading alot about 4-link design, and seeing how they are built in grands, here is what I have come up with. The rear suspension most commonly used is a single-triangulated 4-link (the lowers are basically parallel). With this design, the axle roll axis is just the angle of the lcas in relation to the ground (looking from a side view). Because of the way grands are setup, you cannot change it much from having a slight axle understeer in the rear. axle understeer gives a very good ride quality, keeps a shimmy from starting, but squats on acceleration and raises on breaking. Well...there is not much we can change to make more/less understeer except for changing the lengths of all the CA's, but that still doesnt have a great effect so I wouldnt really take it into account. (comparing short arm to long arm, there is a big difference). Also, i noticed that the UCAs and the LCAs are basically the same length, which gives the same effect as the radius arm design, keeping the pinion angle fixed in relation to the control arms. This also means that ideally the frame side mounts would be at the same spot on the frame as the tcase outputs to the rear. If this cannot be acheived they should just be as long as possible. As for the triangulation, that is pretty simple. It keeps the axle centered without use as something such as a track bar.


Is all of this correct in your book? Anything you would like to add or change? If so, please do so in a response. Thanks, Greg.:)

Kraqa
02-16-2006, 08:41 PM
I couple of things. The front pinion angle will change with throughout the suspension cycle. It will stay the same in relation to your lower arms.

The rear:
The roll axis is the "pivot point in which the body rolls. kind of like spinning a piece of meet on a skewer. On a 4 link with the upper triangulated it is on top of the axle once you triangulate your lowers it mores lower to the ground. And parallel your uppers and triangulating your lowers and it becomes under the axle. A high roll axis will make your vehicle feel tippy on off camber situations.

Anti-squat (AS) is determined by the relation ship between the length of your arms as well as the vertical distance between the mounts. Clayton runs his arm mounts very close to each other at the frame. Yes this will simulate a radius arms setup very closely. Typically a radius arm setup will give you lots of AS but with the weight of a grand you need that, so it offsets it self. I’m running around 130% and I love it.

Your defiantly doing the right thing now by research and discussion. It is the only way to fully understand this stuff.

luvthejeep
02-16-2006, 11:00 PM
hey pissed off flapjack- theres a nic little writeup about link suspensions in this months jp magizine- lol

"anti-squat n. - it's not what you do when the toilet seat is cold..."

:smt046

AgitatedPancake
02-16-2006, 11:06 PM
I couple of things. The front pinion angle will change with throughout the suspension cycle. It will stay the same in relation to your lower arms.

That is what I was trying to imply, I just didnt word it right.




The rear:

The roll axis is the "pivot point in which the body rolls. kind of like spinning a piece of meet on a skewer. On a 4 link with the upper triangulated it is on top of the axle once you triangulate your lowers it mores lower to the ground. And parallel your uppers and triangulating your lowers and it becomes under the axle. A high roll axis will make your vehicle feel tippy on off camber situations.

This part has me confused. The book ive been reading up in (Chassis Design: Principles and Analysis by Maurice Olley and the Milliken brothers) says this, i guess im not sure how to interpret a certain part.

"The axle roll axis runs from point A, where hte lower links converge, to , where the upper links converge. If the lower links are parallel in plain view, point A is at infinity, and the axle roll axis is then always parallel to the plane of the lower links."

Ok, it says it is parallel to the lower arms, but it does not say where it is height wise...??




[quote=Kraqa]Anti-squat (AS) is determined by the relation ship between the length of your arms as well as the vertical distance between the mounts. Clayton runs his arm mounts very close to each other at the frame. Yes this will simulate a radius arms setup very closely. Typically a radius arm setup will give you lots of AS but with the weight of a grand you need that, so it offsets it self. I’m running around 130% and I love it.

reading on that now...awesome 4 link tech article here http://4wheeloffroad.com/techarticles/suspension/131_0307_link/index3.html




Your defiantly doing the right thing now by research and discussion. It is the only way to fully understand this stuff.

Defiantly huh? I didnt see anyone telling me not to :booya: :smt082



*EDIT*
After the reading, I am still unsure about AS. First question, does AS relate to the forward/rearward angle of the roll axis? Second question, how is AS found? The link i posted says

"To make sure your suspension transmits power to the ground, you want a certain amount of antisquat. This will let the tires move the vehicle forward without the energy compressing or expanding the suspension. The perfect amount of antisquat is debatable, depending on the driver’s desires. Some want the vehicle to crouch when accelerating, but this is sending the power into the springs. Some want the vehicle to lift under acceleration to gain more traction, but this can let the axle walk under the vehicle instead of propelling it forward. We will try to design the suspension not to squat or lift excessively, while erring on the squat side. The way to determine antisquat is to run a line from the contact patch (CP), or center of where the rear tire touches the ground, to a point where the upper and lower links would converge in the front of the vehicle while viewed from the side.

The point towards the front of the vehicle where the links would converge is known as the instant center (IC). The line from the instant center to the contact patch of the rear tire should run across the vertical line through the front tire. If it is within the 50 percent to 80 percent of the center of gravity height at the front tire that we determined in Figure 7, then it should be a good amount of antisquat to start from. If you want it to lift more, you need the line to be closer to the center of gravity or above 80 percent. If you want it to squat more, you want the line closer to the ground or below 50 percent. Now if the antisquat is not where you want it, you must start adjusting the link-mounting points. If you move the lower axle point up on the axle, remember to raise the upper link’s axle mount as well. If you move the lower link’s frame mount, then you may need to move the upper link’s frame mount as well. Then after you think you have gotten the links where you want them, move your new dimensions back to those of Figure 8 and make sure your roll axis is angled towards the front of the truck. Expect to spend many long hours moving your measurements back and forth between Figures 8 and 9 until you have everything dialed in."

http://4wheeloffroad.com/techarticles/suspension/131_0307_link_16_z.jpg

(This article is based on a double triangulated setup...not sure that makes a difference in this instance)
If the links converge at a point before the vertical line running through the front wheels as claytons and many others do, how is the AS measured?

Finally, they say a good rule of thumb for simply measuring the CG is measuring from the top of the bellhousing to the ground...this would still be accurate(ish) within reason with my lift and tires correct?


Thanks again for helping me understand physics and geometry of a suspension, AP.

Kraqa
02-18-2006, 09:21 PM
thats all good info. what they are say is true. The double triangulated setup will not affect your AS but it will ffect yoru roll center and roll axis. Keep in mind AS is nto the end all and be all of suspension design. when were are calculating our AS numbers this is at level ground. once you add a slope, loos gravel, yoru passenger moving around, gas in the tank sloshign back and forth, your AS numbers go to shit.

This is simply a good design measure to start from. IF you get yoru AS in line at least you knwo yoru close on everythign else. then you can start tweeking the design to adjust everythign else. THis is why the comp guys run multiple link mounts. With adjustable arms and mounts they can tune there AS roll center ect depending on the trail/event. Of corse none of us are goign to get that technical but it is important to understant why peopel do it and what the benefits are.

AgitatedPancake
02-19-2006, 07:09 PM
Sweet man thanks.

RUYellow
02-19-2006, 09:29 PM
Here is a little compilation of links to info on 4 links.

http://www.ruyellow.com/Suspension-Gen3.htm