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zjmike4
01-02-2006, 07:05 PM
So I get gas a week ago, turn the Jeep on and it won't even fire. Power is fine. It's acting like I'm trying to start it while in gear, but its in park. So I get a push, park it, come back with tow vehicle and it starts. Jeep's fine for a few days, I get gas again and it does the same thing (gas is probably coincidental). So I wait 10 minutes, jiggle the gear shifter around and it starts. Few more days go by and it works normal. Then today I am leaving Keystone Mountain, the jeep was in a garage for 3 days while I was up there snowboarding. Go to start it today and it does the same thing, won't start, acts like I'm trying to start it in gear. Only this time jiggling the gear shifter is not working. 30 minutes go by and we decide maybe jumping in it will help (the battery shows no sign of being dead though). So I put it in N and push it out, hook up jumpers, first try it does the same thing. wait a few more minutes and it starts right up. I got it back to my house now. Anyone know what this could be?? I think the getting gas thing and the jumper cables are probably irrelevant, and the Jeep just happened to act that way when those things were happening.

zjinprogress
01-02-2006, 08:08 PM
i don't know what year or drivetrain setup your zj is but the neutral safety switch could be your suspect. i know my 95 xj did the same thing so i took and cleaned the nss and it fixed that problem, but then again that was an aw4 tranny.



Mike

norton
01-02-2006, 09:32 PM
im having somewhat the same problem. A couple of weeks ago it started acting up on me. it wasnt doing REAL bad up until a few days ago

a little less than a week ago i took it to the shop to have them fix my power steering and i told him about my little starting problem too. he changed the (+) cable and said he started it 15 times with no problems. well a day later i had starting problems again.

it doesnt seem like my problem is the battery either. normally when your batt is dead, you turn the key and it goes click click, click click. mine i turn the key and it tries to turn over but doesnt. give it a second and try again and it seems to almost get it. usually then the third try it will stagger a bit then start up and idle at like 1300-1400rpms for about a minute..

any ideas? starter maybe giving out? this shit is retarded.

[/hijack]

zjmike4
01-02-2006, 11:30 PM
Yeah, mine won't even attempt to start. I have the 46RH (or RE, not sure). Its been rebuilt twice now.

Pitch
01-03-2006, 01:31 AM
I had the same issues on my WJ. New battery harness=no more problems for the past 3 months.

Are your terminals corroding? Or, corrosion may creep up into the wires even if your terminals look clean.

zjmike4
01-03-2006, 04:42 PM
The same issue as me or as Norton?

CurtP
01-03-2006, 05:07 PM
mine i turn the key and it tries to turn over but doesnt. give it a second and try again and it seems to almost get it. usually then the third try it will stagger a bit then start up and idle at like 1300-1400rpms for about a minute..
Can you hear the starter spin but not engage when it does this, or does it kick but not turn the engine over?

norton
01-03-2006, 08:18 PM
Can you hear the starter spin but not engage when it does this, or does it kick but not turn the engine over?

i can hear it TRY to kick. actually it doesnt even try. it just kinda tries to push but doesnt have the umph to move it fast enough to get the crank going.

im pretty sure its just the starter fawkin up. time for a new one soon

weiln12
01-04-2006, 01:53 AM
Hey everyone, new here, but this thread seems highly coincidental for me too.

Just recently got a 96 ZJ w/ 5.2, and I've been doing some work on it recently. Rear diff fluid, spark plugs, MAP sensor, HVAC blower, etc. Took apart the dash, took the blower out but to get it out I took the relays (I think, square black boxes w/ plugs in the fuse relay on the passenger side), and I think I got them back in correctly. Everything seems to function just fine, all lights, guages, etc., however when I try to start it now, doesn't even try to turn over. The radio lights go out, and there is a click in the fuse panel, but the starter doesn't even try to engage.

I've tried charging the battery, tried the battery from my Durango which works just fine there, but a no-go in the ZJ. What could I possible have disconnected, or bumped, anything under the dash when I took it apart, or anything that would contribute to this problem?

Any ideas on where to start? Mine's not starting at all, unlike Norton and zjmike4.

weiln12
01-04-2006, 09:06 AM
Just wanted to add a couple things...

The headlights don't even dim when the I turn the key to start, so there isn't any draw on the battery from the starter, just the radio turns off. It really sounds like the starter, and I'm going to rip that out tonight and test it. I just wanted to make sure I hadn't messed with any relays or neutral switch or anything that would cause this situation. The Chiltons doesn't mention anything in the wiring diagrams about the fuses or relays controlling the starter, but I haven't gotten my FSM yet either.

TIA,
Nathan

CurtP
01-04-2006, 12:33 PM
Nathan,
Do yourself a huge favor and get the FSM - well worth the money. Haynes/Chilton's just doesn't cut it past basic maintenance. As far as your problem, did this occur immediately after you messed with the fuse panel or were you doing other work too? The starter relay is in the PDC that's under the hood. Here's the diagnosis table:

STARTER FAILS TO ENGAGE:
1. Battery discharged or faulty.
2. Starting circuit wiring faulty.
3. Starter relay faulty.
4. Ignition switch faulty.
5. Park/Neutral position switch (auto trans) faulty or misadjusted.
6. Starter solenoid faulty.
7. Starter assembly faulty.

1. Refer to Group 8A - Battery. Charge or replace battery, if required.
2. See Cold Cranking Test, in this group. Test and repair feed and/or control circuits, if required.
3. See Relay Test, in this group. Replace relay, if required.
4. See Ignition Switch Test, in this group. Replace switch, if required.
5. See Park/Neutral Position Switch Test, in this group. Replace switch, if required.
6. See Solenoid Test, in this Group. Replace starter assembly, if required.
7. If all other starting system components and circuits check OK, replace starter assembly.


Norton - is this your issue (I especially like #4 :D):

STARTER ENGAGES, FAILS TO TURN ENGINE.
1. Battery discharged or faulty.
2. Starting circuit wiring faulty.
3. Starter assembly faulty.
4. Engine seized.

1. Refer to Group 8A - Battery. Charge or replace battery, if required.
2. See Cold CrankingTest, in this group. Test and repair feed and/or control circuits, if required.
3. If all other starting system components and circuits check OK, replace starter assembly.
4. Refer to Group 9 - Engine, for diagnostic and service procedures.

zjmike4 - one of the above may apply to you. I'm looking for the ignition system diagnosis to post.

weiln12
01-04-2006, 03:59 PM
CurtP,
That is AWESOME, thanks. I am definitely getting the FSM, just don't have it yet. This will just accelerate me getting the FSM though, especially for diagnosis, troubleshooting and wiring stuff (and figuring out why the stupid blower isn't working while it's IN the truck, probably some wiring issue :rolleyes: )...

I didn't mess with anything AFTER the fuse panel (except changing the plugs), and didn't touch the PDC at all. However, I did remove the center console and had to vaccum everything since the person before me managed to break nearly the entire interior of the truck. I did disconnect the box under the console, from the warning label I'm guessing it's the airbag module, but I plugged everything back in correctly. I'm pretty sure everything is coincidental with timing, and I think it's probably the starter.

Today is my daughters b-day, so I may not get to it tonight, but now it's one more thing on the growing list... :)

Thanks!
Nathan

zjmike4
01-04-2006, 06:47 PM
I bet it would be #5 for me.

1 BAD ZJ
01-04-2006, 10:16 PM
Had the same problem last winter. Changed the starter and had no problems since.

ramjet
01-04-2006, 11:42 PM
Another thing that some of U could consider especially the ones that leave their vehicle parked for a period of time is "Hydraulic Lock", I know it sounds a bit drastic but I come across it all the time on heavy duty engines(Ktta50 cummins etc)it can be caused by coolent or fuel leakage into a cylinder when the vehicle is not running. So be carefull when tow starting, bending a con rod etc.
Please check your electrics and starters first as you seem to be.
This is just food for thought .

CurtP
01-04-2006, 11:47 PM
weiln12 - here's the test procedure for the relay circuit:

RELAY CIRCUIT TEST
(1) The relay common feed terminal cavity (30) is connected to battery voltage and should be hot at all times. If OK, go to Step 2. If not OK, repair the open circuit to the PDC fuse as required.
(2) The relay normally closed terminal (87A) is connected to terminal 30 in the de-energized position, but is not used for this application. Go to Step 3.
(3) The relay normally open terminal (87) is connected to the common feed terminal (30) in the energized position. This terminal supplies battery voltage to the starter solenoid field coils. There should be continuity between the cavity for relay terminal 87 and the starter solenoid terminal at all times. If OK, go to Step 4. If not OK, repair the open circuit to the starter solenoid as required.
(4) The coil battery terminal (86) is connected to the electromagnet in the relay. It is energized when the ignition switch is held in the Start position. Check for battery voltage at the cavity for relay terminal 86 with the ignition switch in the Start position, and no voltage when the ignition switch is released to the On position. If OK, go to Step 5. If not OK, check for an open or short circuit to the ignition switch and repair, if required. If the circuit to the ignition switch is OK, see the Ignition Switch Test in this group.
(5) The coil ground terminal (85) is connected to the electromagnet in the relay. It is grounded through the park/neutral position switch only when the gearshift selector lever is in the Park or Neutral positions. Check for continuity to ground at the cavity for relay terminal 85. If not OK, check for an open or short circuit to the park/neutral position switch and repair, if required. If the circuit is OK, see the Park/Neutral Position Switch Test in this group.

zjmike4 - here's the NSS test procedure:

PARK/NEUTRAL POSITION SWITCH TEST
(1) Place the transmission gear selector lever in the Park position.
(2) Disconnect and isolate the battery negative cable.
(3) Raise and support the vehicle.
(4) Disconnect the park/neutral position switch harness connector.
(5) Check for continuity between the center switch terminal and a good chassis ground. There should be continuity. If OK, go to Step 6. If not OK, replace the faulty switch.
(6) Move the transmission gear selector to the Reverse position and check for continuity between the center switch terminal and a good chassis ground. There should be no continuity. If not OK, replace the faulty switch.

Ignition switch test:

IGNITION SWITCH TEST
WARNING: ON VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH AIRBAGS, REFER TO GROUP 8M - PASSIVE RESTRAINT SYSTEMS BEFORE ATTEMPTING STEERING WHEEL, STEERING COLUMN, OR INSTRUMENT PANEL COMPONENT DIAGNOSIS OR SERVICE. FAILURE TO TAKE THE PROPER PRECAUTIONS COULD RESULT IN ACCIDENTAL AIRBAG DEPLOYMENT AND POSSIBLE PERSONAL INJURY.
(1) Disconnect and isolate the battery negative cable.
(2) Remove the steering column shrouds and disconnect the ignition switch harness connector. Refer to Group 8D - Ignition Systems for the procedures.
(3) With the ignition switch in the On position, check for continuity between the ignition switch terminals 1 and 7. These are the terminals at each end of the switch connector. There should be no continuity. If OK, go to Step 4. If not OK, replace the faulty switch.
(4) With the ignition switch held in the Start position, check for continuity between the ignition switch terminals 1 and 7 again. There should now be continuity. If not OK, replace the faulty switch.

This should at least get you guys started.

norton
01-04-2006, 11:52 PM
i just changed my starter today and shit is fawking peachy. :smt116

zjmike4
01-12-2006, 06:11 PM
Update: I think I have isolated the problem. Once again I was stranded without it starting and decided to tap the starter to see if that would help and it fired right up. So far this has immediately fixed the issue on 3 occasions so I'm pretty sure it is the issue. I imagine a starter is pretty easy to install too?

norton
01-12-2006, 06:50 PM
Update: I think I have isolated the problem. Once again I was stranded without it starting and decided to tap the starter to see if that would help and it fired right up. So far this has immediately fixed the issue on 3 occasions so I'm pretty sure it is the issue. I imagine a starter is pretty easy to install too?

yup.

edit: if youve got your handy dandy FSM like me