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Kraqa
12-10-2005, 12:20 AM
Ok here it is.

Well I think its about time we start Mallcrawlins Topic Of The Month.

ZJ Long Arms


Some people may not know what they are. Some people may already have designed and built multiple setups. The first TOTM is to cover the over view of Long arms for the ZJ platform.

-Materials
-Mounts
-Flex joints
-Anti-squat
-Hell Even the different brands on the market.


Post pictures of your setups. But be prepared to answer all the questions that follow. Ask questions and I’m sure people on here will be able to answer them. This is discussion.

Also, be prepared to back up your statement. This is not a thread about “My friend knows a friends who’s dad did this and it broke”.

Lets get this started!

Kraqa
12-10-2005, 12:28 AM
This is my setup.


I used Johnny joints at the frame end of all the lowers and polyurethane bushings at the axle side. I used custom bushings I had made up for me by a local urethane shop, but any urethane bushings will do (i.e. polyperformance) the only difference is that my poly bushings are in a 1/4" DOM tube sleeve where most companies out there is using 1/8" HREW pipe. Inside the poly bushing is a 1x1/8" wall DOM tube that is a sleeve for the 3/4" bolt that go's through the centre. Then I got grade 8 allow 1" fine thread ready rod (6" long for adjustment) and welded nuts on the end then welded the nuts to the bushing/Johnny joint sleeve.

My front arms use 3" Johnny joints, and my rear uses 2-1/2" Johnny joints. All my poly bushings are 3" except the 2 in the front upper arms. They are 1". Everything in my suspension uses 3/4" bolts except the four (4) rear Johnny joints, they use 9/16" bolts.

My arms are 2x2x1/4" wall HSS with 1" fine thread deep nuts welded in the ends. The rod ends thread into that with jam nuts.

My rear upper arms are the same construction in the rear except I used poly bushings at the frame and Johnny joint at the top of the pumpkin.

My front uppers are a radius style (connect to my lower arms) and they are made front 1-1/2 x 1-1/2 x 3/16" HSS with the same style poly bushing at the axle end (these bushings are the same poly but they are only 1" wide, the other ones are 3" wide) and the other end is a 3/4" Teflon heim joint. My front lower arms are triangulated out about 10 degrees

The rear upper arms are triangulated (40 degrees separation) at the top of the pumpkin. The truss that it connects to is constructed from 3x3x1/4" HSS with 5x1/2" flat bar at the top.

The sub frame is 4x6x1/4" HSS cut in half to make the two sub-frame rails. 1/2 for each frame rail. I used the stock cross member but chopped about 5" off each side and welded on a plate so it could be removable from the sub frame yet it would not be in front of the lower arms. This allowed me to run incredibly long front arms. The sub frame is bolted on in three places and then welded at the ends and periodically in the middle.

My front track bar is a modified RE standard adjustable front track bar. I flipped the heim and made a new bracket at the frame.

All my brackets are made from 1/4" plate. Actually the only thing in my whole suspension set-up that is not 1/4" or more is the two pieces for my rear truss and my front upper arms.

Arm Length:


Front

Upper: 21”
Lower: 46-5/8”

Rear

Upper: 40-1/2”
Lower: 38-1/2”
* These are all approximate sizes so give or take ½”.



BOM

1. 24' 2x2x1/4" HSS
2. 40" 4x6x1/4" HSS
3. 1/2 4x8x1/4 plate (approx)
4. 48" 3x 0.250 wall DOM tube
3. 48” 1x 0.125 Wall DOM
5. 20" 4x2x3/16" HSS
6. 20” 5x1/2” flat bar
7. 3 @ 36” 1” NS 14 TPI alloy ready rod
8. 14 @ 1” NS 14 TPI grade 8 nuts
9. 14 @ 1” NS 14 TPI grade 8 deep nuts
10. 8 @ 5” ¾” NF grade 8 bolts plus 2 washers, and 1 locking nut each
11. 4 @ 3” ¾” NF grade 8 bolts plus 2 washers and 1 locking nut each
12. 4 @ 2-1/2” Johny Joints
13. 2 @ 3” Johny Joints
14. 4 @ grease able 9/16” bolts (came with Johnny joints)
15. 6 @ 3” poly bushings
16. 2 @ 1” poly bushings

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Kraqa/Suspension/DSC02808.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Kraqa/Suspension/DSC02809.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Kraqa/Suspension/DSC02810.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Kraqa/Suspension/DSC02811.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Kraqa/Suspension/DSC02812.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Kraqa/Suspension/DSC01087.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Kraqa/Suspension/DSC01086.jpg



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Kraqa/Suspension/DSC01097.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Kraqa/Suspension/DSC01096.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Kraqa/Suspension/DSC01094.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Kraqa/Suspension/KraqRock008.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Kraqa/Suspension/KraqRock005.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Kraqa/Suspension/KraqRock004.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Kraqa/Suspension/KraqRock006.jpg


My Front coils are Rubicon Express 4.5” lift coils and my rears are Chevy 1 ton Leaf springs cut down to ¾ the length and are mounted ¼ elliptical.

Kraqa
12-16-2005, 11:21 PM
So no ones gonna post? Come on guys this is a Tech website.

BiggerZJ
12-17-2005, 01:32 AM
by no means is this a "that will never work post" but i will say my performance both on and off road was greatly improved after i got rid of all my poly bushings. i had no idea how "loose" my setup was, my reasoning for running the poly was to help keep the noise from feeding into the cab, in saying that im curious why you decided to run poly bushings?

TrojanMan
12-17-2005, 01:40 AM
Did alot of research on long arms.. and before anybody (new) gets into long arms, they need to understand all of the factors and how they play in to eachother. You can't just pick some lengths, mounting points, and call it a day.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168577

that's a pretty good thread with lots of long arm info.

Kraqa
12-17-2005, 03:19 AM
The reasonign behind the poly bushing were the fact that the sister compnay i work for is a urathane manufacture. These are a custom bushign i design that allow for +/- 10 degree's of misallignment. It is a 2 peice design, the center section is a relativly hard polyurethane to keep a rigid fit and no pnion angle movment. It has 100%$ memory, this means that it will return to its original shape, always. the outer sections are a softer, yet still with 100% memory, this allows for it to rotate yet hold the pinion anlge stiff. The softest peices are as soft as you can go with out loosing the 100% memory. I have had no problems with these and they have absolutly no slop.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Kraqa/Long%20Arms/Kraq-RockLA013.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Kraqa/Long%20Arms/Kraq-RockLA001.jpg

Kraqa
12-17-2005, 03:20 AM
This is my subframe. it is bolt on and weld on.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Kraqa/Long%20Arms/Kraq-RockLA003.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Kraqa/Long%20Arms/Kraq-RockLA004.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Kraqa/Long%20Arms/Kraq-RockLA005.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Kraqa/Long%20Arms/Kraq-RockLA006.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Kraqa/Long%20Arms/Kraq-RockLA007.jpg

the rear UCA mounts have since been tied into the cage to help stiffen them. There was no strength problems, no flex at all. But i feel better abotu having a cage mount onto them. Plus the big flat surface made for an excellent mounting surface.

ELLLLLIOTTTTT
12-17-2005, 04:12 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Kraqa/Suspension/DSC01094.jpg

Do your arms bumpstop on the frame rail at compression? thats one of the big problems i see with longarms. ground clearance is a tradeoff of travel.

BTW nice D3's...I had some of these back in my day. ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Kraqa/Long%20Arms/Kraq-RockLA007.jpg

ELLLLLIOTTTTT
12-17-2005, 05:04 AM
Also, everyone talks about vertical seperation while designating truss/arm mounts. How does placing the control arm mount parallel with the diff/pinion affect that?

BiggerZJ
12-17-2005, 02:35 PM
i try to keep the lower links at the same height as the pinion giving as much ground clearance as possible yet still providing good driveshaft protection. this means having to build a taller truss to mount the uppers higher on the axle. a good rule to go by for determining the vertical distance between lower and upper axle mount is use a 1/4 of your tire OD. so if your running a 35" tire you are looking at 8 3/4" vertical distance between lower mount and upper mount. i only take that up to 10" separation, u dont need anymore than that.

Kraqa
12-20-2005, 02:23 AM
My arms don't hit the frame rail. I have the bump stops set so that it just about hits, but stops abotu 1/8" away.

Tommy
12-20-2005, 02:45 AM
This probably doesn't add much to this thread but I was under the jeep none the less and roughly measured my front and rear 4 link. I measured center of bolt to center of bolt. Here are my measurments. I will edit this when I get my entire parts list together.

Front Uppers 42"
Front Lowers 43"


Rear Uppers 43"
Rear Lowers 48"

phillyzj
12-31-2005, 07:10 PM
I've been tossing around the idea of using all rubber bushings, or a mix of rubber/poly. Am i nuts??

My thoughts are: Just about every setup i've seen needs limiting straps because it flexes so much. Well, with all that flex, might rubber bushings flex just as well as a limit strapped long arm suspension?

i'm just making sure it's worth it to buy 200 dollars plus of flex joints.

the other option is just to build it with rubber and if it doesn't perform well, spring for the flex joints.

thoughts??

Kraqa
01-05-2006, 05:33 PM
i though about that. never did it tho. it just seams that you can blow rubber bushings so easy with flex joints i'l bet it is easier to blow then with no flex joints.

phillyzj
01-05-2006, 11:20 PM
i though about that. never did it tho. it just seams that you can blow rubber bushings so easy with flex joints i'l bet it is easier to blow then with no flex joints.

i guess we'll find out. It' not a huge money issue, since rubber bushings are rather cheap.

ptownTSI
01-10-2006, 06:06 AM
kraqa why did you not space the sides of your mount out further away from the johnny joint to allow more rotation of the joint. seems like you will only get about 1/4" on each side for rotation.

bigrubbers4x4
01-16-2006, 03:47 AM
so uhhh, you want to build another set of those subframe brackets for the unibody and sell them by chance?

fr3db3ar
01-16-2006, 08:44 AM
so uhhh, you want to build another set of those subframe brackets for the unibody and sell them by chance?

or give us some detailed measurements :smt023

Kraqa
01-16-2006, 04:49 PM
i dont' understand why peopel ask for measurments. They are right there in front of your eyes. a tape measure will reveal that it takes all of 2 min to measure thsi stuff up your self.


how much woudl you buy that sub frame from me for?

fr3db3ar
01-16-2006, 05:19 PM
i dont' understand why peopel ask for measurments. They are right there in front of your eyes. a tape measure will reveal that it takes all of 2 min to measure thsi stuff up your self.

cause people are lazy and you already did it :D



how much woudl you buy that sub frame from me for?

That's not how it works......I can't go to the store and they ask me how much I would pay for something :fart:

Swamp boy
01-16-2006, 09:31 PM
Ill give you $39.99 and even toss in the shipping on top of that...:smt046

Kraqa
01-16-2006, 09:57 PM
ok 400.00 US :flipoff2:

fr3db3ar
01-16-2006, 10:02 PM
ok 400.00 US :flipoff2:

You're right....I'm gonna have to get off my ass and measure for that kind of $$ :flipoff2:

Kraqa
01-16-2006, 10:03 PM
300.00

ILikeMud
01-16-2006, 10:04 PM
w/ arms? :p

Kraqa
01-16-2006, 10:05 PM
300 for the sub frame with 3/8" thick brakets plasma cut. fully welded all you need to do is make soem arms.

ILikeMud
01-16-2006, 10:07 PM
That's a good deal.

Kraqa
01-16-2006, 10:11 PM
it woudl have to be done in batches of liek 5 tho. in order for me to make money. if you guys are seriouse then i will do this.

TrojanMan
01-17-2006, 06:18 AM
so much for long arm tech. I got all excited when I saw so many posts.

bigrubbers4x4
01-18-2006, 01:49 AM
$300.00 for just 2 subframe longarm mounts.....hmmm.
i guess i will just have to fab my own up, i was just being lazy and didnt feel like doing it, but for 300 bucks i can buy enough material to make a set of those and the arms without the ends and joints. it wouldlnt take to much time i guess to fab them up, could ya hook up a fellow jeeper with some measurements though, shouldnt have to pay for info, what do you think?

ELLLLLIOTTTTT
01-18-2006, 01:57 AM
all you need to do is make soem arms.

ADJUSTABLE arms, and truss, and radius arm(s), etc, etc. I still vote Claytons is a good call if you don't want to mess with all of that.

Swamp boy
01-18-2006, 02:15 AM
Pst... Measurments should be $150

LouisianaZJ
01-18-2006, 02:30 AM
$300 is fair.

jsteves
01-21-2006, 10:35 AM
$300 is fair, and like kraqa said...get off your lazy ass and measure it yourself :finga:

ILikeMud
01-25-2006, 01:51 PM
So what about us n00bs who one day will take on the task of making a long arm of your own. Where do we get an understanding of how to fab this stuff up?

ELLLLLIOTTTTT
01-25-2006, 02:29 PM
So what about us n00bs who one day will take on the task of making a long arm of your own. Where do we get an understanding of how to fab this stuff up?

a.) take a welding class if inexperienced
b.) lots and lots of research for LA designs and characteristics; i.e. roll axis, COG, anti-squat, etc. figures.
c.) gather parts/materials
d.) take your time to get the right result

Cue-Ball
01-25-2006, 02:51 PM
I would think that a noob should not have LA's be their first project. I mean this is the thing that keeps your Jeep on the road you need to really think it out and BE SURE you have good solid welds and components.

ILikeMud
01-25-2006, 03:27 PM
Well, I'm not a total n00b. However this isn't something I'd do right now. In a few years with some more welding under my belt, yea.
Still interested in learning more about it.

Kraqa
01-25-2006, 03:51 PM
i wanted to jump inot LA's when i first found out how to weld. i got in a huge heated argument with NateBaldwin abotu it. I had been aroudn the ZJ scene for two years but had never made anything. he convinced me to start with sliders and man was he right. my first pair of sliders were horrible. i welded a few welds with out the gas on. i was filling 3/4" gaps with weld. it was a nightmare.

Cue-Ball
01-25-2006, 04:05 PM
Yea but your second set probably helped save your life.

Jcbzj
02-01-2006, 08:03 PM
kraqa..how much seperation is there on the bracket for your radius arms in the front? Im looking to do something like that for my radius arms to avoid building a truss on the front axle. Just trying to figure out the least amount of seperation I can go with

ILikeMud
02-01-2006, 08:16 PM
i wanted to jump inot LA's when i first found out how to weld. i got in a huge heated argument with NateBaldwin abotu it. I had been aroudn the ZJ scene for two years but had never made anything. he convinced me to start with sliders and man was he right. my first pair of sliders were horrible. i welded a few welds with out the gas on. i was filling 3/4" gaps with weld. it was a nightmare.

I hear ya. My welds are slowly slowly getting better, I don't have a welder of my own so I can only screw with the schools MIG.
I'm gonna tackle making bumpers before I even think about making a long arm.

Kraqa
02-01-2006, 08:40 PM
i'l check for you. not much what front axle are you using?

Jcbzj
02-01-2006, 09:07 PM
8 lug hp44

Kraqa
02-02-2006, 01:33 AM
ok so the same axle then. if i were you i woudl make a truss out of 3/8" or 1/2" flat bar that runs over the top of the pumpin. tei it into both axle tubes. then run your upper arm off the top of that. i'm htinking abotu doing this on my 60 but we will see.

Jcbzj
02-02-2006, 06:23 PM
Yeah I probably will end up doing that..but whats the problem with the setup that you were running? In theory it seems like it shouldnt bind more than any other radius arm setup. But the way I was thinking about doing it there would only be like 6" seperation, which I thought might be a little to close together. But yours looks to be pretty close to that

Kraqa
02-02-2006, 06:28 PM
i want an upper arm going to the frame.

Jcbzj
02-05-2006, 09:17 PM
Hmm..well I think Im going to end up running that setup in the front. My brackets are going to have about 6" seperation, center to center. I made a template and it should do alright. Going to have brackets for drivers and pass. side but probably only going to run drivers side upper on the trail.

okzj
03-06-2006, 05:38 PM
Hey Kraqa... or anyone for that matter...

Could you mirror-image your front radius arm setup for the rear? I'm not a suspension expert, but I have some engineering knowledge and I don't see any reason it wouldn't work. I never see anyone with that setup, so I figured there has to be SOME problem with it.

Thanks for your help.

Kraqa
03-07-2006, 04:41 PM
physically you can but i do not knwo anyone that will recomend it. You run alot of anti-squat. and your axles will twist alot. Ask Ron. If your going to be building LA's i would recoment you just do it right the first time.

okzj
03-08-2006, 03:57 PM
Got it.

Just thinking out of the box.

ATL ZJ
03-08-2006, 04:01 PM
physically you can but i do not knwo anyone that will recomend it. You run alot of anti-squat. and your axles will twist alot. Ask Ron. If your going to be building LA's i would recoment you just do it right the first time.

Ted at Peak Empire (peak zj) did that for a while and he ran into quite a bit of breakage.. He's got a 4link back there now for a good reason.. ;)

luvthejeep
03-08-2006, 07:50 PM
hahah radius arm rears- nice i might have to try that on my cj-5, ill find a couple front axles and do a "4 wheel drive fullwiths radius arm bolt on" kit hahah