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View Full Version : Water Pump Install 4.slow (gasket question)



LouisianaZJ
08-09-2005, 09:27 PM
im replacing the WP on my 4.slow this week. never done one before

question is, what type of RTV or gasket sealers should i use with the paper gasket. I was recommened to use some permatex indian head gasket sealant on both sides of the paper, wait till tacky, then install

also looking at permatex waterpump RTV

looking for the most idiot proof method, that wont leak

also, should anything be placed on the WP bolts?

AprilzWarrior
08-09-2005, 10:48 PM
Boy this is most NEWB question Ive ever heard from you..



SEARCH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!














Use RTV Black.

LouisianaZJ
08-09-2005, 11:10 PM
thanks!!! :finga:

btw, what size tires can i fit with a BB?

JpRngr
08-10-2005, 12:35 AM
RTV SUCKS! Do not use unless the waterpump maker has specifically said to use it. The gasket is designed to work without any other sealant as long as your mating surfaces are clean. Clean the crap out of the mounting surface and install the gasket dry.


Corey

TrojanMan
08-10-2005, 12:47 AM
I use red RTV.

ZJake
08-10-2005, 08:55 AM
I've had bad luck with RTV also and I use a product called Hylomar made by Permatex that is applied onto a gasket. But I'd do whatever the gasket and/or waterpump maker say. my .02 :drinkers:

OverkillZJ
08-10-2005, 08:56 AM
I used red in conjunction with the paper gasket as well: everything I read suggested to do so. 16 months later and no leaks at all.

JeepinHank
08-10-2005, 09:10 AM
The water pump is the only thing that doesn't leak on my jeep. I just used the manufacturer's included cork / paper gasket.

dasVettemeister
08-10-2005, 10:27 AM
RTV should never be used on a paper gasket, it was not designed for this. Especially between two dissimilar metals (water pump/block) as they have different expansion rates and will deteriorate the 'seal' that RTV initially provides. Besides, most paper gaskets have a coating on them allready that seals to the metal as it heats up. If you insist on using a gasket compund use it on ONE SIDE of the gasket only, and only in an instance of an uneven/imperfect surface. :smt002

OverkillZJ
08-10-2005, 11:21 AM
RTV should never be used on a paper gasket, it was not designed for this. Especially between two dissimilar metals (water pump/block) as they have different expansion rates and will deteriorate the 'seal' that RTV initially provides. Besides, most paper gaskets have a coating on them allready that seals to the metal as it heats up. If you insist on using a gasket compund use it on ONE SIDE of the gasket only, and only in an instance of an uneven/imperfect surface. :smt002

I'm not exactly an expert on the subject, but when my FlowKooler instructions said to use it, I used it.

Jim311
08-10-2005, 05:25 PM
I used the included paper gasket on my Mopar water pump. No leaks whatsoever.

AprilzWarrior
08-10-2005, 07:43 PM
I can honestly say that Ive done a thousand water pump, and Ive always used silicon w/gasket.


Do as you wish. But expansion rates on a water pump is just BS. The ever so red pubic hair that it "might" move is not enough to make one leak... UNLESS you slid the pump to find the bolt holes.



AW

dasVettemeister
08-11-2005, 06:42 PM
I can honestly say that Ive done a thousand water pump, and Ive always used silicon w/gasket.


Do as you wish. But expansion rates on a water pump is just BS. The ever so red pubic hair that it "might" move is not enough to make one leak... UNLESS you slid the pump to find the bolt holes.





AW

Do as YOU wish, I'm only speaking from an aviation background, and we all know leaks don't matter on an aircraft engine. :smt002 As far as expansion rates being BS, you'd be surprised at the amount of movement between aluminum and cast iron in a 100 degree range of temperature.

1000 water pumps, eh? I'm impressed. I mean seriously, I'm REALLY impressed. I'm being totally serious here.

JpRngr
08-11-2005, 09:13 PM
1000 water pumps, eh? I'm impressed. I mean seriously, I'm REALLY impressed. I'm being totally serious here.

Me too. Seeing as I've been a mechanic for 15-20 years and I honestly don't think I've done that many.


Corey

AprilzWarrior
08-11-2005, 11:38 PM
I worked at a Honda ONLY shop for a long time, and thats where I started.... fucking water pumps... I hate them. I hate silicone thats in coolant. Trust me... Ive done a shit load, and also nearing 15yrs of wrenching. more like 12.


As for avaition I cant tell you a thing and wont try too... BUT these are JEEPS... not NASA.


:partyman:

dasVettemeister
08-12-2005, 06:18 AM
I worked at a Honda ONLY shop for a long time, and thats where I started.... fucking water pumps... I hate them. I hate silicone thats in coolant. Trust me... Ive done a shit load, and also nearing 15yrs of wrenching. more like 12.


As for avaition I cant tell you a thing and wont try too... BUT these are JEEPS... not NASA.


:partyman:

Whatever. I will acknowlege that you are an expert on Honda water pumps. Oh, and genius, NASA has nothing to do with airplanes aside from enforcement of some of the regs. Some of the same principles at play on aircraft engines DO apply to automotive engines. I have worked on both quite a bit. BTW - The FAA did an extensive study on the topic of sealers and will not, under any circumstances, allow the use of silicone based selant in an aircraft engine in conjunction with a fiber gasket. Why is this you ask.... Because it was found that silicone based sealant can compromise the integrity of the seal.

Why does it matter to you that it's a JEEP engine specifically? They're really no different than any other automotive engine.

RTV is for morons that like to half-ass things and can't do the job the right way. Prep the surface well, use the gasket as it was intended, the job is done. Ever use a Fel-Pro gasket? You are not supposed to use ANY sealer or RTV with them as they have a heat sealed coating, much like 90% of the gaskets out there. The others (uncoated fiber) should be used with a gasket SEALER, NOT RTV!

Jim311
08-12-2005, 07:16 AM
I can honestly say that Ive done a thousand water pump, and Ive always used silicon w/gasket.


Do as you wish. But expansion rates on a water pump is just BS. The ever so red pubic hair that it "might" move is not enough to make one leak... UNLESS you slid the pump to find the bolt holes.





AW

Do as YOU wish, I'm only speaking from an aviation background, and we all know leaks don't matter on an aircraft engine. :smt002 As far as expansion rates being BS, you'd be surprised at the amount of movement between aluminum and cast iron in a 100 degree range of temperature.

1000 water pumps, eh? I'm impressed. I mean seriously, I'm REALLY impressed. I'm being totally serious here.

On the 5.2 it's one piece of aluminum mounting to another :partyman:

AprilzWarrior
08-12-2005, 07:45 AM
On the 5.2 it's one piece of aluminum mounting to another :partyman:[/




Exactly!



dasVettemeister,
My Point is that there is always someone like you out there guaranteed to over dramatize a simple installation. Reading what you wrote, you must be the expert and this conversation is over. I should have never questioned you. Oh and did you know that the water pump bolts to aluminum? And that the timing cover uses a special gasket that has a sealant bead on it when it’s new?





"RTV is for morons that like to half-ass things and can't do the job the right way"

dasVettemeister
08-12-2005, 08:34 AM
[And that the timing cover uses a special gasket that has a sealant bead on it when it’s new?





Your key words are "on it when it's new". The gasket was designed with that there, and it's teenie tiny little line. Have you ever assembled two parts with RTV between them and then proceeded to torque them to spec? I'm sure you have, because it's the wrong way to do things. There is no way to get a proper torque spec with that shit in there. I guarantee you there's a torque spec for that timing cover! That's why the crap is already on the gasket. So that someone like you can't come along and put the goo no there then torque it only to find out that the spec is off, the RTV squeezed out, made it's way to the oil-pan, and it's now blocking the oil-pump pickup.

I see you didn't grasp ANY of what I was saying. I'm saying RTV should not be used in conjunction with a gasket in ANY situation unles the gasket was designed for it. (ie. integrated as mentioned) Non-silicone gasket sealer is a different story.

Jim, you're correct about the timing cover being aluminum. I forgot about that. Kudos for that catch. :smt002 I have Chevy on the brain after this past week.

AW, your would-be point is still moot, however. Keep grasping at straws, you are just showing me how little you know after 20 or 30 years of wrenching or however many you claim you have. I wasn't overdramatizing, I just can't stand people that think because they've done things 1000 times they're doing it the right way. Wrong is wrong.

I never claimed to be an expert as you say, but I know how to do a few things the right way. Some of these things I have learned by making mistakes, or from watching other people make mistakes. Working on anything mechanical is a continual learning process, that's why I love it.

doyll
08-12-2005, 10:47 AM
what dasVettemeister says 2X

An Aircraft Mechanic is about as hi tech as mechanics get. Except the are woosies who hold each others hands :mrgreen: They do everything by the book, checking, double checking, someone else checking, complete documentation, etc. (I've got a buddy who's one) You AM's are anal sometimes in your perfectionism!! Gotta wash before starting to work, gotta put everything in perfect order as it comes apart, gotta chean and inspect everything before it goes back together, lube bolts before install. safty wires. AAAAHHH!!!! :mrgreen:

Give me some baling wire and duct tape.... almost forgot the silicone!! and it can be fixed.

Seriously, I'm not as meticulous as you, but do respect what you do. There is a HUGE difference between doing it the absolute right way and doing it good enough to work most of the time. Any automotive mechanic worth his salt knows how to cut corners to save time. That's what flatrate is all about. No offence, I worked for years wrenching. But it's the truth. Aircraft mechanics have to do every step and document it.

Big difference is setting and waiting for help or falling from the sky if something goes wrong. :supz:

dasVettemeister
08-12-2005, 05:54 PM
doyll, I don't currently hold an A&P or AI cert, but I'm thinking about picking it up because it would be easy at this point. The knowledge is there allready. My first job was in a shop at an airport many years ago. I worked under the supervision of an A&P and an AI doing teardowns and re-assembly work of airframes and engines after 100 hour inspections, annual inspections, and rebuilds. (I was apprenticing with the intentions of becoming an A&P) I've actually assembled quite a few Continental and Lycoming engines.

You're spot on about aircraft mechanics being anal retentive as all hell!!! :smt003 It's an amazing process to be a part of or watch. I guess you have to be extremely detail oriented though, because you sign your name to the airworthiness of an aircraft. There is no margin for error.

My mechanical experience began with aircraft then went on to heavy equipment/semis, then working on racecars of the super-comp and pro-stock nature. Now I just wrench for fun, but EVERY task has always been carried out with as much attention to detail as would be given an aircraft. Yeah, even on a damn Peterbilt! :smt003 Ask Krash80, he can tell you about my style.

Am I an overly anal-retentive bastard when working on stuff? HELL YES! I'm proud to say I'm not some Sanford & Son calibre tech slapping engines together with mass quantities of silicone from a caulk gun. (Yes, I've actually seen this!!!)

AprilzWarrior
08-12-2005, 06:06 PM
So that someone like you can't come along and put the goo no there then torque it only to find out that the spec is off, the RTV squeezed out, made it's way to the oil-pan, and it's now blocking the oil-pump pickup.



Give it a rest. That may happen to a rookie of sorts, but come on. Thats you over dramatizing again.



AW, your would-be point is still moot, however. Keep grasping at straws, you are just showing me how little you know after 20 or 30 years of wrenching or however many you claim you have. I wasn't overdramatizing, I just can't stand people that think because they've done things 1000 times they're doing it the right way. Wrong is wrong.


I never claimed to be an expert as you say, but I know how to do a few things the right way.


I did not say 20-30 years (overdramatizing) again.

You do it your way, Ill do it mine. What works for me may not work for you and I dont care. You could say its wrong if it leaked or blocked a water jacket or something, Id admit it if I fucked up. But I have not in this case. And for the matter of amount used... I personally use a VERY THIN layer, not heaping gobs of the stuff.

Call it straws, but not everything get the goo... Trannys dont and Diffs do (no gasket) Aluminum 44 and Steel cover that vibrates ALOT does not leak.

Say my point is moot but you cant prove me wrong. From things Ive listed its just light automotive stuff. Im glad your anal as you are, God willing I might fly somewhere. So without taking this personally or reading into what I wrote, :finga: :partyman:

doyll
08-12-2005, 06:48 PM
I use RTV on things too.. it's good stuff too!

LouisianaZJ
08-12-2005, 07:01 PM
how wide a bead of RTv should i use?

im gonna try to get it done this weekend

dasVettemeister
08-12-2005, 07:10 PM
So without taking this personally or reading into what I wrote, :finga: :partyman:

Back at ya! I'll admit I'm a pissy hardheaded bastard. I also admit I did a bit of assuming. Sorry 'bout that. I'm sure you've seen a lot of the same crap as me...... idiots that use RTV as a substitute for know-how and proper procedure/equipment.

For shits and giggles, try this product that was brought to my attention a few years ago. It's manufactured by Pioneer and it's their 'High-tack copper gasket cement'. Sold in an aerosol can and is GREAT for damn near any gasket. (Especially water pumps) Naturally, it works best on the uncoated variety. :smt002 Even works EXCELLENT as a thread sealer. Best part is it won't affect torque readings.

Out of curiosity, what RTV do you find works best? I use (as called for) that Permatex "Right Stuff" shit. Kinda like the fact that it's in a can and won't dry up in between the times I use it.

I do like 'discussions' like this though (if we can call it that :smt003 ) because there is always some kind of info and learning that can be gleaned from it.

dasVettemeister
08-12-2005, 07:11 PM
how wide a bead of RTv should i use?

im gonna try to get it done this weekend

IF you use RTV, don't use a bead, just use a thin schmear like AW said. (Not that I can wholeheartedly recommend the use of that shit, but it seems you're set on using it. :smt002 ) May as well be done at least halway right, eh? :smt003

AprilzWarrior
08-12-2005, 10:15 PM
See... working for a better tomorrow.

I forget the Red stuff that I use to use... I think it was Lock Tite but it never really set up hard... more flexible.... like what Atlas uses on their Transfer cases.

Jim311
08-12-2005, 11:03 PM
I only use RTV on shit like diff covers. Anywhere else I use the included gaskets unless there's no other option. I used some sort of blue shit on my oil pan when I did the rear main, only because I think I recall AW recommending it in the tech thread.