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View Full Version : High Steering Effort w/Replacement Steering Boxes



MMMBoulder
07-06-2005, 01:09 PM
Blew up the steering box coming out of Rusty Nail-see Thank You from Mike Moore in GSW. In the last couple of days I have put in 2 additional steering boxes, 2 from NAPA (1 was these was the one put in in Moab) and 1 OEM. The steering with all three requires significantly more effort that the original.

All other steering components seem fine. I don't want to hide the problem with steering rams, etc. Would like to fix the issue. Any ideas.

Thanks,

Mike

Kraqa
07-06-2005, 02:02 PM
i don't think high steer will effectivly reduce the effort to turn your wheels. If everything was working before and the new box's seem week i woudl start checkign what could have gone wrong when it tore off. you said you broke a line top you steering pump. OK well i saw the broken line to your steering pump...and all you fluid everywhere....lol. i would look at that maybe a paice of the plastic line is floating aroudn in you pump, cloggin it or perhaps reducing the flow. Or check to see if your Power steering lines are bled properly, if you have an air bubble in there that will greatly reduce the amount of power. I could not think of anything else that would cause this problem. unless the box you had before was aftermarket.

If you don't want to "hide" the problem with a ram (i would not consider that hiding it. once you go over a sertain size tire a ram is probably the best route to effectivly reduce the stress on your steering box and give you the ability to steer the wheel with one finger) Then look into the PSC steering box's with variable valving and bore sizes.

Cody
07-06-2005, 02:21 PM
I know you can modify the steering pump to pump better. And hydro assist will deffinately make turning a lot easier off road--although it can alter how it feels on road (it doesn't bother me when I'm on normal roads but I don't expect rally car performance).

Also, a steering box brace, such as the one Kevin offers, will keep things together and it may even stiffin it up a little bit. I'm going to be getting the KOR brace in the next week or so.

BTW, I now have acquired 3 ZJ steering boxes and I'm only down 20 bucks :D Now I have 2 spares!

Cody

bill~ns
07-06-2005, 02:24 PM
If the line came off and the pump ran dry, there is a good chance the pump is fragged as well... that would definitly cause hard steering, no matter what new box you put on it.

Bill

MMMBoulder
07-06-2005, 04:17 PM
Thanks for the feedback. I have tried another pump, did not make any difference. I ordered Kevin's brace before leaving for vacation and it is on the Jeep as well. Good thought on the piece of plastic in the pump, not there but maybe it is trapped in the line-will check that as soon as I can and let you guys know.

The reason I would consider hiding the issue if it is something else that was caused by the blowup and is now a weak point a ram of some sort could make it break that much easier. But just my thoughts.

Sooo Cody, now you have spare boxes...

Kraqa
07-06-2005, 04:55 PM
i'm not sure if you understand the concept of hydro assyst/ ram assyst.

but the ram uses the fluid from your pump to push the tie rod. The steering box become the switch or vavle that controls the fluild going to the ram. By mounting the ram from your axle to you tie rod it efectivly takes abotu 98% of the force off of you steering box and frame. thsi is not a bandaid or a quik fix to hide a problem it is the solution if you constantly tear box's off. personnally i think your waisting your time getting a steering box brace, aftermarket box or even pump for that matter. a ram can be aquired for less then $120 hydro lines can be made up at a store for less then $30 and it woudl take you a day to drill and tap you steeering box.

Jim311
07-06-2005, 05:21 PM
Perhaps, but even a hydro assist will never "feel" quite like a real steering box. Especially not full hydro. I've talked to a few buggy guys who HATE their full hydro setups because there's absolutely no feedback from the road whatsoever.

Kraqa
07-06-2005, 06:06 PM
full hydro and assyst are two complete difrent things. but yes they feel difrent then a stock setup. the difrent i think i would feel is that warm a fuzzy feeling inside i get when i knwo that i'm not goign to rip my box off when i go wheelin.

Jim311
07-06-2005, 06:20 PM
full hydro and assyst are two complete difrent things. but yes they feel difrent then a stock setup. the difrent i think i would feel is that warm a fuzzy feeling inside i get when i knwo that i'm not goign to rip my box off when i go wheelin.


Still, not the same "live" feel as you'd have with a typical box. Definitely something to consider if all you want from your steering setup is to not break off your box every time you go wheeling. There are easier options. If you want it to move boulders, that's a different story.

robselina
07-06-2005, 06:29 PM
Perhaps, but even a hydro assist will never "feel" quite like a real steering box. Especially not full hydro. I've talked to a few buggy guys who HATE their full hydro setups because there's absolutely no feedback from the road whatsoever.

Then they have crappy systems. I get plenty of feedback from the full hydro and the ram assist setup (have a rig with each). Anyway, performance of any ram-assist system or full-hydro system is VERY pump dependent and I know most guys cut corners there by running stock saginaw pumps....

robselina
07-06-2005, 06:31 PM
I know you can modify the steering pump to pump better. And hydro assist will deffinately make turning a lot easier off road--although it can alter how it feels on road (it doesn't bother me when I'm on normal roads but I don't expect rally car performance).


This is what you're thinking of I think:

http://westtexasoffroad.homestead.com/powersteering.html

I did this mod and ran dual pulleys on the waggy and never really got much out of it..I intend to switch to a PSC 1405 pump.....

Cody
07-07-2005, 02:37 AM
i'm not sure if you understand the concept of hydro assyst/ ram assyst.

but the ram uses the fluid from your pump to push the tie rod. The steering box become the switch or vavle that controls the fluild going to the ram. By mounting the ram from your axle to you tie rod it efectivly takes abotu 98% of the force off of you steering box and frame. thsi is not a bandaid or a quik fix to hide a problem it is the solution if you constantly tear box's off. personnally i think your waisting your time getting a steering box brace, aftermarket box or even pump for that matter. a ram can be aquired for less then $120 hydro lines can be made up at a store for less then $30 and it woudl take you a day to drill and tap you steeering box.

yes yes, and the key here, I can't stress this enough, is to use the correct length bolts, coupled with routine checking and/or tightening.

Yes, I have spare boxes. I only tapped one, but I carry caps for the fittings on my ram, so if I have to I can cap off the ram, put in a non tapped box, and get myself moving again.

I've actually been pretty lucky--the first time I broke a box off I found a replacement, already tapped, for 25 bucks. Now I've found 2 free boxes (1 from a 98 ZJ, the other XJ ish in origin I believe) and 1 for 20 bucks. I actually need to inform the other box-owner that I want it before he gets rid of it.....


Guys, one thing I think we are neglecting to consider, is that Mike built his ZJ to be able to tow his camp trailer--thus the gratuitous use of forced induction and f250 drivetrain. I honestly haven't had enough experience running hydro assist on the street to say whether I would recommend for or against running it on a rig that frequently tows a moderately heavy load on curvy mountain roads.

Obviously full hydro isn't an option here, so I think the solution is either hydro assist, or an aftermarket/upgraded steering box/pump setup. Hydro assist is probably the cheaper/easier solution, and I think it would deffinatly make a difference offroad--especially if you wheel a lot in Moab. I'm just not sure if it will be 'invisible' enough to not adversely affect on-road performance--most particularly while towing.

Cody

robselina
07-07-2005, 10:30 AM
Obviously full hydro isn't an option here, so I think the solution is either hydro assist, or an aftermarket/upgraded steering box/pump setup. Hydro assist is probably the cheaper/easier solution, and I think it would deffinatly make a difference offroad--especially if you wheel a lot in Moab. I'm just not sure if it will be 'invisible' enough to not adversely affect on-road performance--most particularly while towing.



IMO, if it's properly aligned and he has a 1.5x8 ram and a high-flow pump so the steering won't be slow, he should be a-ok with hydro-assist in that application.

MMMBoulder
07-12-2005, 05:22 PM
Sorry no responses from me for awhile. Been out of town. Cody has nailed my concern with hydro assist-towing through the mountains. Perhaps it can be set up to feel comfortable, but not sure. I am trying an AGR pump to see if that helps. Should get it in tomorrow. Will let you know.

I appreciate all the comments and feedback.

MrFreeze5
07-12-2005, 06:45 PM
I've got a replacement box pulled from a ZJ for a spare, if you need it, you're welcome to it since I should be getting my PSC box soon. It's a factory box, not OEM replacement crap for the parts store.

Kraqa
07-12-2005, 10:27 PM
i just got my waggy box semi installed. Thing turns nice and is actually pretty beefy.

word of warning don't buy 79 or older. i did. Now i have to get some adapter lines from the pump to the box. 79 was the last year they used a flared fitting. 80's they started useing O-ring.

i'm gonna do a write-up on how to mount the 4 bolt waggy and tap for hydro when its done.

nate
07-12-2005, 11:43 PM
Does it just bolt in... well except that 4th one, not hard to make the mount for it though.

Colorado 5.9
07-13-2005, 12:42 AM
I don't know if any of you heard/read on one of the trip reports but I busted my box on Sat. Corey & I ordered a couple of 621mr's. I hope to get them by Fri. I'll let you guys know how things work out.

What's the best way to do the fourth bolt?

luvthejeep
07-29-2005, 08:36 PM
hey all- i been lookin for info on the waggy box swap cant find much, from waht ive gathered, its 4 instead of 3 bolts, 3 line right up. other then that id like some info, whats the advantage over the stock zj junk? will the pitman arm swap over too? line i think kraqa explained well, 80 and up bolt on. and what about the j20 box??

thanks

good to see you guys again, im in the virgin islands now. wheeling is pretty fun here. alot of easy stuff though, workin on getting some trails cut. cant beat the weather-

tony

Colorado 5.9
08-01-2005, 02:39 AM
Mike, Did you ever get this resolved? Just to let you know I install my new PSC 621mr box this last week. It steers so damn easy it's almost to good.

Kraqa
08-01-2005, 04:12 PM
The forth bolt is located above the frame rails. i used a chiun 1.5" x 1.5" x 1"H plate then drilled a hole about 3/8" frm the bottom al the way throught then slid this between the box and the outer frame rail. then welded it in place. the stearing is freekign amazing. i tapped the box for hydro assyst but it is really unessisary except for strength issues. i will now be switchign to a 1.5" ram instead of the 2" one i have lying around.

MMMBoulder
08-02-2005, 06:54 PM
I put in the AGR pump and the steering effort is still high. It seems sound just takes more effort. I am going to the Rubicon next week and don't want to mess with it until I return. At that point would be interested in the 621mr box. Where did you guys get them?

Mike

Kraqa
08-02-2005, 07:27 PM
i just can't justify spending that much money on that box when the waggy box can be had for less then half the price.

Colorado 5.9
08-02-2005, 09:01 PM
Corey & I baught 2 from http://www.4wheelcustoms.com/Products.asp?Cat=793 They matched & then beat http://www.4x4rockshop.com/scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=290 Including shipping. It came to $330 a box including shipping. PSC is real backed up right now though. It took them a little over two weeks to get me one box & three to get Corey's.

Kraqa
08-02-2005, 09:36 PM
hmm i paid 70 for my box......and thats canadian

Cody
08-02-2005, 10:14 PM
I paid 25 bucks for two boxes. Thats like 50 Canadian monopoly monies. ;)

Mine turns fine.

FWIW, I guess the newer jeep boxes don't have the same type of seal on the something or other so we had it machined to accept a snapring and seal much like the older style boxes which apparently have a more reliable design and the afformentioned something or other.

I call that cody-tech

Cody

Kraqa
08-02-2005, 10:19 PM
lol.

cody-tech.

i'l try searchign that on JU. :finga: :finga: :finga: :finga: :finga: :finga:

MMMBoulder
08-03-2005, 10:55 AM
Thanks for the info on the boxes. I am going to look into it when I get back from California.

Colorado 5.9
08-07-2005, 03:52 PM
Update on the PSC 621mr:

Yesterday after doing Bill Moore & we got to the trail head of Spring Creek. I found that I had no steering at Idle. If I bumped up the RPM's just a tad it would come back. I don't yet really know why other than I think I was just too damn hot. I didn't do Spring Creek. I just came back home not knowing what was up.

After letting the thing cool off for 4 hours this evening I started the jeep up. Steering is back to normal. Very easy at Idle again. I guess I'm just going to install a cooler for it.

Since everything seemed to be back to normal after it cooled down. Over heating is the only thing I can think of. I think it was AprilzWarrior or maybe GoingOffRoading said the stock pump is inadequate for the PSC 621mr. Maybe that's why. Once it get's to a certain temp, it can't pump at well at idle.


Any other ideas?

nate
08-07-2005, 05:53 PM
Weird.... I haven't had any problems.

JpRngr
08-07-2005, 09:11 PM
Scott,
I was having overheating issues on the Chalupa with the full PSC setup(conversion pump, box, and ram). The cooler I added seemed to help quite a bit.

Corey

Colorado 5.9
08-07-2005, 10:03 PM
That's good to hear. I was looking in Summit's cat. & for what's in there & the prices, looks like the Mopar kit will do just fine. Really fine if I get it at whole sale. Oh, I should say kits since I want to do both trany & power steering at the same time.

K2
08-08-2005, 02:24 PM
Do you think this is how it starts?


EDIT: PIC is hit or miss.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid181/pd1f92950ee561193c3310de1635e30bc/f2e9ee7f.jpg

Ok I see it is hard to see, but on the right side there is a hairline crack. If you can zoom in or see the original from my imagestation account

Are there boxes at yards that are bolt in and better? What year and make do I need to look for? I don't have $300 for a new one. TIA

K2

BTW: Corey CONGRATS on the new addition to the family! Joy is due 12/30.

:drinkers:

Colorado 5.9
08-08-2005, 03:20 PM
Yep, that's how it starts. While I was waiting for my PSC box I checked Stadium Auto yard online & they had like 4 or 5 of them for around $90. Diff. years though. Auto Zone has new ones for about $40 more I think. The waggy boxes with four ears are about the same. You might be about to get away with your box if you install Kevins Brace right away & keep the other ears toqued to specs.

JpRngr
08-08-2005, 03:20 PM
Can't see pic!






BTW: Corey CONGRATS on the new addition to the family! Joy is due 12/30.

:drinkers:

Congrats Ken! Cristi should be popping anytime. She's due 9/04.

Colorado 5.9
08-08-2005, 03:26 PM
Here, I rehosted it.:)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v169/Colorado59/Jeep%20Pics/f2e9ee7f.jpg

K2
08-08-2005, 08:19 PM
Thanks Scott. So any late model waggy box is fine? One from Pull-N-Save ok? I am going to build a brace as soon as I can. I am getting shoulder surgery wednesday. So I will be down for the count for a bit.

K2

Colorado 5.9
08-08-2005, 09:38 PM
At the top of page 2 Kraga expained it. 1980 or newer. Any older & it has the flare type fittings instead of our o-ring type.

K2
08-08-2005, 10:19 PM
Sorry I must have readf through it to fast and missed it. Thanks