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View Full Version : Lets talk STEERING BOXES!!!



Krash80
06-16-2005, 12:06 AM
After an absurd number of steering boxes breaking at GSW, lets open some discussion as to what we can do to modify these things or what we can replace them with that won't leave us stranded on the trail.

I was under the impression that I'd be fine with my stock box and the RockLogic hydro assist setup, but after seeing Cody's box break several times, I know more needs to be done.

So post some pics of what braces you've used, hydro assist setups, replacement heavy duty boxes, etc. Toss in some pics of carnage or of new parts, and be sure to include the specs of your rig when you broke the parts you did.

-Ron-

ATL ZJ
06-16-2005, 12:46 AM
Weird, I was thinking about posting this today also...

How about experience-based opinions from folks running some of the following boxes:

3 ear Durango
hard-to-find J20
Waggy (plain 4 bolt non J20)
PSC 14:1 4 bolt box

Technical specs are also okay, but personally, I'd just like to hear what people actually running each of these think of them. With the amount of play developing in my stock box, I suspect that it just might decide to go fairly soon.

AprilzWarrior
06-16-2005, 12:58 AM
Well,
The "hard to find" J20 is found at most NAPAs... FYI. Ive installed a few on XJ's and a ZJ.



FWIW... I made this...
Its a pillow bearing that supports ALL the load on the Sector Shaft... Im thinking of changing it so that the Sway bar is eliminated by an Anti Rock.
Sorry thats the only pic I have... enjoy.
http://fototime.com/CD5B3B722C6F8F9/standard.jpg

ATL ZJ
06-16-2005, 01:14 AM
Well,
The "hard to find" J20 is found at most NAPAs... FYI. Ive installed a few on XJ's and a ZJ.
http://fototime.com/CD5B3B722C6F8F9/standard.jpg

From my research a while back (~2 years), I believe the consensus on PBB was that the boxes available at the parts stores were not the big bore (3.5" perhaps, as opposed to standard 3"?) box sought after. That would make the box parts stores' boxes identical to the Waggy box, since they are both 4 ear, making the only difference the bore size. I don't have any direct links since I read this so long ago, and I do realize that information posted on any web forum should be taken with a grain of salt, but as I recall, that distinction proved consistent through all my research. That doesn't mean it's correct, so let us know if it's not.

Nordic1
06-16-2005, 01:43 AM
PSC 621MR... The king :flipoff2:

Kraqa
06-16-2005, 01:48 AM
your still relying on your frame as the support for all the twisting. Eventually the way we drive your going to end up with problems tryign to turn 35+ on the stock parts. I like AW support. i'm interested in seeing what people have come up with or have seen. I'l post up my hydroo when its done. (hopeing before this weekend)

JeepinHank
06-16-2005, 10:01 AM
In terms of the frame support issues, XJ guys swear by the C-Rok reinforcing plates. I would imagine it should cross over to a ZJ pretty easily.

http://www.c-rok.com/sb.html

Price of $85 seems pretty reasonable. It would be worth that just for the amount of time it would take me to do something like that in my garage.

AprilzWarrior
06-16-2005, 10:43 AM
From my research a while back (~2 years), I believe the consensus on PBB was that the boxes available at the parts stores were not the big bore (3.5" perhaps, as opposed to standard 3"?) box sought after. That would make the box parts stores' boxes identical to the Waggy box, since they are both 4 ear, making the only difference the bore size. I don't have any direct links since I read this so long ago, and I do realize that information posted on any web forum should be taken with a grain of salt, but as I recall, that distinction proved consistent through all my research. That doesn't mean it's correct, so let us know if it's not.


I dont have any numbers to throw out there... BUT after installing those J20 box the steering was superior to the stock box. They turned with the same ease as a PSE box, and I know because Ive installed several of those too...




WA :drinkers:

nathaniel
06-16-2005, 05:23 PM
Running 4 bolt waggy box works just fine.

Jeepin' Wolf
06-16-2005, 11:37 PM
Whoever was the moron at Jeep that decided to mount a steering box with 3 bolts. All the breakage I saw started off with that cracked inner lower ear which obviously takes a lot of beating. I would think any 4-ear box would last much, much longer.

Kraqa
06-17-2005, 01:34 AM
Whoever was the moron at Jeep that decided to mount a steering box with 3 bolts. All the breakage I saw started off with that cracked inner lower ear which obviously takes a lot of beating. I would think any 4-ear box would last much, much longer.

totalyy off topic btu i can here the polish accent now.

Jeepin' Wolf
06-17-2005, 11:08 AM
Go piss on your shoes, eh.
:flipoff2:

BigDaveZJ
06-17-2005, 11:13 AM
your still relying on your frame as the support for all the twisting. Eventually the way we drive your going to end up with problems tryign to turn 35+ on the stock parts. I like AW support. i'm interested in seeing what people have come up with or have seen. I'l post up my hydroo when its done. (hopeing before this weekend)

Exactly. The box could have so much you look at the steering wheel and it would turn the wheel, but unless the front end is nice and beefy, it doesn't matter.

I would think beefing up the front cross-member would help some too, similar to the front bumper on the Chalupa. Help distribute some of the load from the box. And a 4 bolt box is a MUST IMO.

KevinM
06-17-2005, 07:18 PM
As far as I am concerned, the frame reinforcing plate is worthless. I had no problems with my frame, the box is the weak link. the ear on the box that the bolt threads into broke. I also sheared the bolt itself. The frame is strong enough, the box is weak.

F*cking Jeep engineers!!!!

nate
06-18-2005, 01:52 AM
I'm not sure how many of you guys have looked under an XJ, but compare it to a ZJ and you'll see why they need the frame beefed. There is a big difference.

I run the PSC box. Works great. Ever drive an older Chevy (70s)... know how it's easy to steer? Same deal with this. Even on the trail, I can steer with just a finger or two. I might get one for my truck since I think the stock one is leaking pretty bad.

Jim311
06-19-2005, 10:04 AM
I'm thinking about going the PSC route myself. My box is looser than a 2 dollar whore.

JohnBoulderCO
06-19-2005, 11:37 AM
WJ boxes have 4 bolts!

chadjans
06-25-2005, 12:28 AM
Found out where my death wobble was coming from. Two broken ears on my steering box. And I didn't even drive to moab. Just from Phoenix to Flagstaff.

Chad

deadman
06-25-2005, 02:38 AM
Throw steering box out, put orbitrol in = problem solved :mrgreen:

chadjans
06-25-2005, 01:22 PM
Throw steering box out, put orbitrol in = problem solved :mrgreen:

That's nice and all but some of us still drive on the street, like to sand dune and baja race and such. And hydro assist works just fine. I am going the PSC route with a 621mr box, seens how my old box was ported and tapped for hyrdo.

Chad

chadjans
06-27-2005, 02:59 PM
Anyone looked at the steering ratios of aftermarket boxes vs oe boxes. It seems that the PSC box I just ordered is variable.

Chad

chadjans
06-27-2005, 03:11 PM
Just found out my answer: PSC used to offer a 14:1 one ratio box. Now they are doing variable with 13/16:1.

Chad

Kraqa
06-28-2005, 12:30 AM
i just ripped mine off. i don't knw what to do hydro, hydro assist. the j20 box is the same price as then stock box. do i keepo stock or do i go through the whoel rout of bolting and bracing the j20 then do hydro. with a 2" ram i think i shoudl have enough power that the box shouldn't be stressed that much.

chadjans
06-28-2005, 12:40 AM
2 inch is too big for assist. Just fine for full hydro.

Chad

ATL ZJ
06-28-2005, 12:45 AM
2 inch is too big for assist. Just fine for full hydro.

Chad

What would you recommend? 1.5" or 1.75"?
Some Cruiser guys say that the size of your ram depends on whether or not you modify your steering box (not just the tap and port... internally).. Can someone better explain?

norcaljr
06-28-2005, 12:55 AM
2 inch is too big for assist. Just fine for full hydro.

Chad

What would you recommend? 1.5" or 1.75"?
Some Cruiser guys say that the size of your ram depends on whether or not you modify your steering box (not just the tap and port... internally).. Can someone better explain?


I just picked up a whole hydro assist kit from Howe Performance. I would give them a call. They have a great set-up, and will build custom length rams for ya.

http://www.howeperformance.com/

Kraqa
06-28-2005, 01:21 AM
well 2" is to big for the street. for off road it is fine. just not fast.

chadjans
06-28-2005, 03:09 PM
Hydraulic steering by nature is slow. Adding a larger diameter ram will slow it down even more. You'd be moving more fluid then neccessary. It also all depends on what the distance your axle can turn from knuckle to knuckle. You MUST adjust your stops to hit before the ram maxes out and breaks joints. I'd run a 8" Stroke Cylinder, 1.75" bore, .750" rod for assist system. Some get away with a 1.5 bore. Again all depends on tire size. And a 2.25" bore X 8" stroke 1.125" rod or larger for a full hydro. This again all depends on the axle and tire size. D44 would be a min with 37's. Box: get a large piston setup with a high flow pump. If your bo is fine just tap it and run it with a good flowing new OEM pump. (For assist). ALL of this would be pointless with D30 and almost a D44. :finga:

PSC stuff in on sale at pirate. Check the vendor section.

Chad

KevinF
07-05-2005, 09:57 PM
I knocked off an ear and sheared a bolt on Pritchett at EJS '04. This is after checking my bolts every trip out (AND Locktite) because they like to back out. I suspect that during a hard right turn, possibly when the tire is against a rock, the driver's frame rail compresses enough to allow the bolts to get loose again. For reference, I'm running 37" MT/Rs.

Anyway, here was my fix:
-Wagoneer 4-bolt gear with a 12.7:1 ratio core
-Rebuilt with a 1.125 bore
-Fabbed up a steering gear brace that attached to BOTH frame rails, effectively strengthening the frame torsion slightly at the same time
-Braced the outside of the frame rail with 1/8" plate around the fourth bolt hole and welded that to the rest of the frame rail bolsters
-Used .500"ID x .750"OD material for the sleeve for fourth bolt. Seems like it was just shy of 2" long. I made it 1/16" longer than I thought I needed to make sure that it was doing it's job.
-Replaced bolts with Grade 8 zinc coated and used plenty of locktite during the install. My thought is that the bolts being upgraded from GR. 5 to 8 allowed me to cinch them down tighter with less twisting on the bolt's part.

Tightened everything down and haven't had a problem with the bolts backing themselves out again. I liked the steering brace solution well enough that I made it available to the public to brace their 3-bolt boxes before they crack and die. I've sold quite a few so far, and have not heard anyone telling me that they have had their bolts walk out on them since they've installed it, so it SEEMS to me that the brace at the lower section is more effective than most of the other gussetting and fiddling. I like AW's idea of the pillow block. Does the same thing: keeps everything from flexing on the frame rail, loosening the steering box bolts.

An aside: Yes, the 3-bolt gear is inherently weak, but I really don't think that the gear is AS MUCH to blame as is the flexible frame rail and the propensity for the entire box to move around ON the frame rail once the bolts loosen. Had I braced my box at the lower section first and disallowed bolts to walk themselves out, I would probably still have a three-bolt gear under the Jeep.

HTH,
Kevin

jjunk
09-22-2005, 07:04 PM
Well I had the steering problem happen with my xj. The bolts on the frame were actualy ripping out of the steering and pulling threw the frame rail . I sat down and made my self my own plate and installed it and it worked better. My question is Is there a better box that will stear 35 when the lockers are on and in 4 wheel drive.

Kraqa
09-22-2005, 11:26 PM
80+ wagoneer.
i love it.

MaineZJ
09-23-2005, 09:14 PM
You MUST adjust your stops to hit before the ram maxes out and breaks joints. I'd run a 8" Stroke Cylinder, 1.75" bore, .750" rod for assist system. Some get away with a 1.5 bore.

better make stops on the ram itself - they can and will break just about anything.
pressure is more a measurement for the diameter of the ram moreso than tire size.


Durango 4x4 boxes are pretty beefy too if you can get one at a good price.

Kraqa
09-30-2005, 02:45 PM
http://www.mallcrawlin.com/forum/showthread.php?p=65413#post65413

ATL ZJ
09-30-2005, 07:47 PM
better make stops on the ram itself - they can and will break just about anything.
pressure is more a measurement for the diameter of the ram moreso than tire size.


Durango 4x4 boxes are pretty beefy too if you can get one at a good price.

Did you adjust yours with washers? Or some other way?