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nate
11-30-2004, 02:57 AM
www.rockcontrol.com

Feel free to critize. I was going to order Clayton's, but after seeing his work, I'm seriously considering this kit. I emailed Ty, and he guesstimates about $1400 for the kit.

95 ZJ
11-30-2004, 05:12 AM
Yeah but how much with shipping to Alaska? Was $1400 but now your looking at more like $2000 :cry: Did you ask by chance cause I'm curious what the total would be. Looks solid as hell to me but then again I'm only an expert in fabrication and welding so who knows :D

deadman
11-30-2004, 05:34 AM
There is a thread about these LAs on here... I will order these arms as soon as I've the green.

gearhead313
11-30-2004, 10:16 AM
...because im internet illiterate, i can't find where the kit is on the site. I see their zj, but it looks like its clayton's...

JeepinHank
11-30-2004, 10:48 AM
I'm not ordering his complete kit, but I will be runnning a lot of his components shortly. I think the system looks very stout and well planned. The only reason I'm not ordering the "kit" is because I've been accumulating pieces of steel for this build over the past year, and I can't let it all go to waste. Ty has been great to deal with up to this point, and usually responds to my emails within 24 hours. I think he's still in school (grad / undergrad - I don't know), but I remember what it was like for me when the semester was winding down, so I understand there can occasionally be times when 24 hours is sort of unrealistic.

Here is what I AM getting through him:

Front and rear cross members with mounting brackets to weld onto my own subframe, (rear LCA tabs included).
Transfer case / belly skid
Threaded tubing inserts to fit my LCAs and UCAs
1.25 and 1.00 fine all thread

I think that's it.

If I could go back and do it again, I'd probably also order a set of his front LCA mounts. Personally, its easy for me to get carried away letting other people handle components / parts, so I had to cut myself off before I just shipped my ZJ to Chico, CA.

I love that belly skid. That is probably the main reason I ended up ordering the components through him. I think the idea of having it bolted on all four sides, instead of in two places (front x-member and Drivers side frame rail) like on most OE type t-case skids, is something that anyone who wheels their Jeep in rocks can appreciate. I've trashed two OE skid plates and my skid row automotive skid plate is starting to show a lot of wear. Also, I'm hell on exhaust - primarily my catalytic converter. Hopefully, the belly skid will provide a bit of protection in that department too.

Anyway, I'm hoping for a shipping date on the parts sometime this week or early next week, and will be doing the bulk of the install between X-mas and New Years. I'm planning to post a full write-up here whenever the build goes down. I would try to keep it in a diary format, (a la Overkill) but, knowing me, I'll be on the Jeep 100% until its done and writing afterwards. Regardless, if you guys won't be ordering in the next 30 days, I should have a writeup for you to take a look at. That way you can get the opinion / experiences on installing a bulk of it from someone other than the designer.

Hank

Alaska ZJ
11-30-2004, 10:49 AM
Looks good to me.

Why not build your own though?

JeepinHank
11-30-2004, 10:55 AM
...because im internet illiterate, i can't find where the kit is on the site. I see their zj, but it looks like its clayton's...

Its similar to Clayton's setup, but if you read through the buggy build up, you will see where he cut out Clayton's stuff, and replaced it with his own design. The biggest difference is the double triangulated 4-link and longer LCAs in the rear. Up front I think its just a difference in mounting style.

Cue-Ball
11-30-2004, 11:34 AM
Can someone explain the double triangulated control arm to me?

JeepinHank
11-30-2004, 11:39 AM
Looks good to me.

Why not build your own though?

Very true, but for me, its a matter of time, tools and resources. I know I could have made the same stuff with my chop saw and angle grinder, but it would have looked shizzy. I'm paying for the higher quality. Ty's stuff is cut on a CNC waterjet (that just sounds cool) and he's already been through the R&D process. I've been in the R&D process for the past 2 years - its time to build something dammit.

The way I see it, I've subbed out some of the more intricate components, and gotten a pretty good price on some of the other necessities (the tubing inserts were cheaper than I found anywhere else). Whenever I get the stuff, I should have a fairly smooth install. :fingers crossed:

Jim311
11-30-2004, 11:45 AM
It looks like an extremely clean install to me. I'm going to wait until some of you get out there and pound on it before dropping my hard earned cash, however. Anyone know when the kit should be available to the rest of us?

JeepinHank
11-30-2004, 11:59 AM
Can someone explain the double triangulated control arm to me?

In a triangulated 4-link, one set of the CAs is triangulated (usually the uppers on a ZJ) - meaning it forms sort of a "V". This eliminates the need for a track bar since the the CAs locate the axle laterally (side to side).

In a double triangulated setup, the UCAs and LCAs are BOTH triangulated (opposite of each other). On this design, the LCAs mount to the rear x-member on the frame side and to the stock LCA locations on the axle. The UCAs attach to the sub frame on the frame side and the top of the diff on the axle side. looking at it from above it looks like this: UCAs = v, LCAs = ^

Does that make any sense at all?

I guess the biggest benefit would be lessened roll steer. Also, the longer LCAs in this design should raise the anti squat values under accel. Haven't run the numbers or anything in the susp. calculator, but that's the way I look at it in my head.

HTH

nate
11-30-2004, 12:29 PM
Gary, shipping isn't actually too bad. Not sure what the weight is. I know with Clayton's kit shipped from Connecticut, I was looking at around $200.

Brentt, Jeepin Hank pretty much summed it up.

The kit is available from what Ty was saying in the emails. I'm sure he's been busy with school and all. I will try and call this weekend to get more details.

Alaska ZJ
11-30-2004, 12:54 PM
Looks good to me.

Why not build your own though?

Very true, but for me, its a matter of time, tools and resources. I know I could have made the same stuff with my chop saw and angle grinder, but it would have looked shizzy. I'm paying for the higher quality. Ty's stuff is cut on a CNC waterjet (that just sounds cool) and he's already been through the R&D process. I've been in the R&D process for the past 2 years - its time to build something dammit.

The way I see it, I've subbed out some of the more intricate components, and gotten a pretty good price on some of the other necessities (the tubing inserts were cheaper than I found anywhere else). Whenever I get the stuff, I should have a fairly smooth install. :fingers crossed:

I was talking to Nate, but thanks for sharing......lol. You are building your own...mostly.

JeepinHank
11-30-2004, 02:26 PM
I was talking to Nate, but thanks for sharing......lol. You are building your own...mostly.

lol.... I guess I am aren't I? :D

Just to give you guys an idea on the costs involved with building your own, I'm looking at around $1100 for just the cost of materials. That includes the stuff I'm buying from Ty, the cost of my steel, joints, and bushings, about $55 for the cost of 3 small tools I'll need (transfer punch set, cheap tap & die set with a lifetime warranty :wink: , and a spanner wrench), and a grossly understated contingency fund of $100 for misc nuts & bolts, brake lines, etc.

I'm trying to compere this apples to apples, so that doesn't include the cost of springs, shocks, trackbar(s), and, of course, tires & axles. I don't even want to try to factor in the cost of all of the fab tools I bought to get to the point where I could actually do something like this, but I've gotten plenty of other uses out of that stuff. lol

I know Ty has done a lot of his work up front, in development costs, but I don't think he's building very much of a profit into that intro price beyond the cost of his labor. In other words, from my financial / bean counter stand point, $1400 ain't a bad price.

Cue-Ball
12-01-2004, 06:40 PM
Just to let you all know I just got off the phone with Ty from Rock Control. We must have talked for about an hour.

I am sold, I will be buying one of his kits and not only that but he is going to come down to AW's shop to help install it, just to make sure there are no questions or concerns.

he even is going to be able to allow me to re-use the Clayton 4-link truss that is already welded onto my 8.8.

I am going to head up to see him the first part of January so he can take me out in his ZJ so that he can show me how well the kit works first hand.

Great guy and really seems to know his shit. i even talked to him quite a bit about his stroker motor and how it runs and all, I may do that when the 4.0 gets a little older myself.

nate
12-03-2004, 09:14 AM
Yeah I ordered it as well.

Forwheelin49
12-03-2004, 12:10 PM
please post some more pics when you get it, that looks like pure beef

Cue-Ball
12-03-2004, 04:27 PM
I am planning to go meet with Ty on Jan. 8th. I am going to get a bunch of pictures of his set up and take it for a test drive, he says there is a place not to far to climb some rocks so I can get a good feel of how well the system works.

MaineZJ
12-03-2004, 04:39 PM
he used to have pics on NAGCA when he was making the kit. Might PM him for them

nate
12-05-2004, 01:26 AM
Well I'm working out the details over email, things are looking good. Should have it installed around Feb or so. Hope it fits and works as advertised, looks like I'm more or less the guinea pig.

Plans are RC LAs, 6-7", 35 SSRs, HP30/8.8 with 4.88s.

OverkillZJ
12-05-2004, 01:51 AM
Well I'm working out the details over email, things are looking good. Should have it installed around Feb or so.

Plans are LAs, 6-7", 35 SSRs, HP30/8.8 with 4.88s.

Take LOTS of pics (obviously ;))

I'm a huge Claytons fan, but the subframe on Ty's kit is nothirng short of awesome...

NorthernZJ
12-06-2004, 07:12 AM
just an update, I added some CAD pictures of the suspension system to the website. I hope this will make it easier to understand the setup. I should have a full layout with control arms and everything pretty soon. I want to make a full install guide. I've got a new computer coming in the mail and my current machine kinda crashes when I try to assemble too many parts in solidworks.

http://www.rockcontrol.com/ZJBuggy/Suspension/CAD/400/400_side.jpg

As far as install details I'm working to make sure the kit is flexable. Every jeep is a little different. Mainly right now is the issue of non 231 cases. The kit drops the TC about 3/4-1 inch(pretty standard - this is what I measured from claytons kit and it works well) when installed with a 231 this isn't a problem because they don't hang low. With other cases I run a spacer on top of the x-member to keep the transmission up and make the room for the case.

I've got a short shaft kit installed but there is plenty of room if you don't. I've got a 1350 CV shaft in the back and there is plenty of room.

Also expect to get creative with the exhaust. It is tight under the belly skid because I didn't want to make it a plow. I've got my cat mounted before the belly skid with a glasspack style tube muffler going straight through and out the other side of the skid. I'm planning on a nice system all the way back with a flow master but needed to get 'r done.

I would also say that if you want to get these control arms installed you pretty much need to go with flush mounting rear axle LCA mounts. There isn't any reason not to and it will keep them out of the rocks. I've got the flush mount kits or you can fab something up pretty easy.

Anyway, it is 3:04 AM and I've got an 8:00 AM electrical eng. class... doh!

Hope some of this helps

Ty

deadman
12-06-2004, 09:34 AM
Great CAD pictures... Keep up the good work!


I need a better paying job! :shock:

nate
12-07-2004, 09:18 AM
Don't we all :D

I am able to buy things for the Jeep because I'm careful on what I spend my money on. Eat Ramen noodles, don't have designer clothes, no kids or wife/girlfriend... that helps ALOT!

Cue-Ball
12-07-2004, 10:38 AM
no kids or wife/girlfriend... that helps ALOT!

Right there is the biggest way to save money!!! :lol:

nate
12-07-2004, 01:18 PM
Yup. Does get lonely sometimes though. I need to find one of them sugar mommas that will buy ME stuff. :D

Cue-Ball
12-07-2004, 01:32 PM
Yup. Does get lonely sometimes though. I need to find one of them sugar mommas that will buy ME stuff. :D

Lonely and COLD I bet.

Alaska ZJ
12-08-2004, 10:05 AM
Yup. Does get lonely sometimes though. I need to find one of them sugar mommas that will buy ME stuff. :D

Your dick is too small.

nate
12-08-2004, 01:30 PM
You've been doing some meat gazing? Fag.

Jim311
12-08-2004, 11:33 PM
Ahahaha :lol:

chadjans
12-09-2004, 04:43 AM
Are the uppers longer than the lowers in the rear?

JeepinHank
12-09-2004, 10:12 AM
Are the uppers longer than the lowers in the rear?

Nope... The lowers mount to the rear crossmember (right at the out put on the T-case) while the uppers are mounted along the frame rail / sleeve.

Not absolutely positive on this, but it appears the lowers are substantially longer.

chadjans
12-09-2004, 10:19 PM
His cad picture is not working so I can't refer to it. Made my question inquiry without it. But if I remember correcty the uppers were longer than the lowers or vice versa (one set aignificantly longer than the other). If that is the case the pinon angles are going to get funny during cycle.

Chad

nate
12-10-2004, 06:44 AM
Yeah the lowers are longer. I'm not too sure about the pinion changing angles. I really don't know a whole lot about link design, that's why I asked if this kit was a pretty good design.

nate
12-13-2004, 11:57 AM
Here are a few shots of the rear setup to give you a better idea. I would just like to hear peoples opinions on the rear setup. Judging from the rest of Ty's fab work and design, I'm sure it's fine, but I really am a newbie when it comes to this stuff.

http://www.rockcontrol.com/ZJBuggy/7-21-04/350/350_131-3148_IMG.jpg

http://www.rockcontrol.com/ZJBuggy/8-21-04/350/350_IMG_3190.jpg

http://www.rockcontrol.com/ZJBuggy/8-21-04/250/tmbIMG_3189.jpg

http://www.rockcontrol.com/ZJBuggy/Suspension/CAD/400/400_top1.jpg

http://www.rockcontrol.com/ZJBuggy/Suspension/CAD/400/400_bottom1.jpg

nate
12-15-2004, 04:03 PM
No comments?

nate
12-15-2004, 05:18 PM
Some good reading:


http://www.truckworld.com/Monster-Trucks/Monster-Tech/tech-2/monster-tech1.html

http://store.gaugemagazine.com/browseproducts/Triangulated-4-Link-Suspension.HTML

http://www.automotivearticles.com/Suspension_Design_2.shtml

Cue-Ball
12-15-2004, 07:49 PM
Thanks Nate, some good stuff there.

ggruszynski
12-16-2004, 10:38 AM
So, is Ty's design good or bad? Sure as hell looks good!

Gabe

Cue-Ball
12-16-2004, 12:37 PM
From what it looks like it is the shit. I will be up there on the 8th of Jan. and will let you know more after that.

KevinF
12-30-2004, 10:34 PM
...If that is the case the pinon angles are going to get funny during cycle.

Chad

Agreed, the pinion angle changes if upper and lower arms are not parallel and equal length. However, how much time does the axle spend with BOTH springs (at the same time) fully compressed or fully extended. If you are jumping it, then you might have a problem...but if you're simply hitting a wash-out, you will compress the suspension maybe 4" or 5" of upstroke, changing the pinion angle minimally, ONLY for a second, and normally NOT under throttle (you would normally have your foot on the brake).

A lot is discussed about pinion angle change. I really don't think it's a huge concern.

One thing I'd like to bring up, though, is the movement of the lower rear control arms to the front of the axle rather than keeping them below the axle. Seems to my feeble mind that axle wrap would be increased measurably due to the lowers no longer working at 90* to force (rear of axle wants to move rearward during braking, forward during accelleration). I like the high-clearance aspects, but aren't you losing a lot of resistance to movement by doing this, particularly with any sort of rubber (or even poly, to some extent) joint in the arms. Heims may offer less of a problem...but still...I am stumbling over this in my mind and it just doesn't seem like a great idea. Those of you who have relocated your stock lower mounts...have you seen any strange handling characteristics like axle wrap or anti-squat or ...?

Great job, Ty!

Kevin

gearhead313
12-31-2004, 10:03 AM
In responce to moving the lower control arm axle mounts up...

I agree with Kevin, I think relocating them would create some kind of problem with axle wrap or anti-squat. As far as AS, if you located the uppers in such a manner to compinsate for moving the lowers, your going to have to worry about axle wrap more than AS.

My 14b came out of a full rock buggy that I've seen in action before. It worked extremely well in whatever it was on. The lowers on that axle are positioned where the bottom of the bracket is even with bottom of the axle tube. This was before I knew enough to take notice of it, but the guy never had any complaints about the axle or how it was setup.

nate
01-01-2005, 04:06 AM
I dunno. It seems to be a common thing to do. I figured if it caused bad results, people would have said something. I know there are several guys running Clayton's brackets and I haven't heard a complaint. I'm sure Clayton did the math and came up with good results... I can't see him just slapping some junk together and calling it good.

I've done tons of research on the internet regarding 4 link suspensions, and I haven't reallyl learned much. One guy will say "abc" setup is the best in the world, while another guy will say "abc" setup is the worst thing to ever do. What is right? Who knows :lol:

Cue-Ball
01-01-2005, 08:23 PM
Nate,

I agree, all the research I have done does not give me a definative answer either. It is like opinions and they are ALL different.

As for the control arm mounts TONS of guys have moved them up so they are not dragging down past the axle tubes, and this is the first time I have ever heard any mention of problems.

I will discuss this with Ty when I see him next week.

MaineZJ
01-01-2005, 10:27 PM
Clayton offers the high clearance mounts, seen em in action--- works great

Alaska ZJ
01-02-2005, 02:26 PM
Some good reading:

http://www.automotivearticles.com/Suspension_Design_2.shtml

I wonder if Brook knows the Freak is being pimped in that article.....

KevinF
01-02-2005, 10:00 PM
Nate,

I will discuss this with Ty when I see him next week.

Cool...let us know what he has to say. It just SEEMS to me that it would add a lot more force to the lower control arm, and if you are using rubber bushings, seeminly they would have to do a lot more work being that they would a lot more force on them. I dunno...I can't really give a good analogy of why this SEEMS to create a problem (at least in my mind's eye). Let me just run off at the keyboard for a moment...maybe I'll get some clarity by the time my fingers get tired, lol:

OK, so the axle wants to do the opposite of what the wheels are doing under accelleration (forward and reverse). The axle rotating is what we call "axle wrap". The top of the axle tube, under forward accelleration, wants to move rearward and the bottom of the tube wants to move forward. The way to compensate for this movement is to keep the axle "pinned" in position at the top and the bottom of the axle at 90* to force. In an "ideal" setting, the mounts would be as far apart (upper and lower mounts on the axle, I mean) as you can get them so that the load is lessened at the point that the arms attach (so that the arms don't have to do as much work). Obviously, in the "real world" there are rocks and gas tanks that are going to get hit if you make them too long.

:idea: Here's an analogy I just came up with. Say you need to turn your steering wheel to change the direction of your tires in a parking lot while you are not moving. You grap it at 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock to turn the wheel...not with your left hand on the wheel and your right hand on the airbag cover, right? By moving the lower control arm closer to the center of the axis, aren't you exponentially adding compression/tension forces to the lower arm the closer to center of the axis you move it? This additional force causes more movement in the joint than a 12" long (if you could make it that long) mount would, right?

Now, with respect to moving the mount to the front of the axle versus the bottom of the axle, isn't that kind of like moving your hands to the 9 o'clock and 12 o'clock positions on the steering wheel, drastically reducing the amount of push-pull leverage that you have on the wheel?

Add those two analogies together, and THAT is why it seems to me like it's a problem with axle wrap.

Took me a minute to explain the concept that was rattling around in my head.

Any comments? Questions? Derogatory remarks aimed at my analogies?

Kevin

OverkillZJ
01-02-2005, 10:03 PM
I had to read it again, but I think I see what you're saying now.

I like the use of the :idea: too :lol:

nate
01-04-2005, 07:16 AM
I shot Adam at Clayton's an email....

...If you installed only the lower high clearance brackets then yes you would get more axle wrap. You do NOT want to decrease the distance between the lower arms and upper arm location. With both our front and rear axle bracket kit both the lower points and the upper points are moved in order to keep the same geometry. We have installed this kit on
daily driver Jeeps as well as on full competition Jeeps and they have worked awesome in both situations. There are no disadvantages with the HC kit except the added cost and more installation work.

KevinF
01-07-2005, 12:11 PM
I shot Adam at Clayton's an email....

...If you installed only the lower high clearance brackets then yes you would get more axle wrap. You do NOT want to decrease the distance between the lower arms and upper arm location. With both our front and rear axle bracket kit both the lower points and the upper points are moved in order to keep the same geometry. We have installed this kit on
daily driver Jeeps as well as on full competition Jeeps and they have worked awesome in both situations. There are no disadvantages with the HC kit except the added cost and more installation work.

OK. Makes sense what Adam mentions about keeping the distances X" apart by moving the uppers upward at the same time as the lowers. But thinking about your steering wheel once again, if you attached a breaker bar to it, wouldn't you still be loading up the center arm (your hand on the horn button) with WAY more force than if the arms were equidistant from the center of the axis (the axle shaft itself). Now, we know that Clayton and Adam use Heim joints that *ASSUREDLY* are up to the task of the (exponentially) additional force...but if poly or rubber joints were used, seemingly those bushings would get eaten up rather quickly or just simply not be up to the task to begin. Heims do wear out over time, so the Heims with more force are going to wear quicker than the others.

Maybe I'm splitting hairs here, but also, wouldn't "X" change depending on how much torque is on the system? In other words, if you were running 44" Boggers on a D60, certainly "X" would need to be a larger number than if you were running 28" street tires due to the traction differences and leverage on the axle (read: taller tire = more axle twisting force). The answer to that question is based on a bunch of variables such as tire height, tire footprint (traction), axle gearing, type of steel used for the mounts, etc, etc, etc. Would be interesting to have a physics major figure all that out. I wonder if Billavista has ever gotten into this...

Anyway, just fodder for more discussion. I appreciate the concept for ground clearance...but still am not 100% sure that I like it for any other joint application aside from Heims, which are built to handle thousands of pounds of force (but the downside is that they also transmit far more vibration into the passenger area than rubber or poly due to the metal on metal design). The 3/4" ones we use for our caster link "look" small, but they are capable of 12k+ LB of force before they fail. I think Clayton and Adam use 1" ones in their setup.

Kevin

Jeepin' Wolf
01-07-2005, 02:12 PM
Now, we know that Clayton and Adam use Heim joints that *ASSUREDLY* are up to the task of the (exponentially) additional force
Johnny Joints, not Heims.


Clayton and Adam use 1" ones in their setup
2 1/2" on main and 2" on UCA link.

OverkillZJ
01-07-2005, 02:58 PM
Now, we know that Clayton and Adam use Heim joints that *ASSUREDLY* are up to the task of the (exponentially) additional force
Johnny Joints, not Heims.


Clayton and Adam use 1" ones in their setup
2 1/2" on main and 2" on UCA link.

Yup, all Clayts setups have Johny Joints at the frame end. The "typical" LA setup has rubber at the axle end, but with his new fancy shmancy brackets he uses johny joints on the UCA mounts as well.

I think that's right?

shayzj
01-07-2005, 11:28 PM
Yea that is right. I have his HC front bracket kit in hand for my waggy 44 install and it is confusing as hell for me. Anyone want to help install it? I can weld it no problem just cannot figure out the placement of all these single pieces of steel. I wil have to post some pics for you guys to understand my dilemma. Definitely JJ's on the upper control arm mounts.

Shay

OverkillZJ
01-08-2005, 12:17 AM
Yea that is right. I have his HC front bracket kit in hand for my waggy 44 install and it is confusing as hell for me. Anyone want to help install it? I can weld it no problem just cannot figure out the placement of all these single pieces of steel. I wil have to post some pics for you guys to understand my dilemma. Definitely JJ's on the upper control arm mounts.

Shay

I haven't even seen pics of it yet, so I'd love to see some...

I need new brackets in the back, hmmmm....