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ATL ZJ
11-15-2004, 03:31 PM
Well my KOR truss separated itself from the d44 at Tellico this weekend. I'd wheeled all Saturday with no problems, so I played around a little on the rock garden at Crawford's that night. Sunday on the way to the trail (Gravel road before the pay station), I hit a bump and got out to look. Pics to come. But the truss had separated itself from the pumpkin entirely on the driverside and the other side of the truss was bent. The passenger side shock snapped and the driveshaft separated because the pinion was pointed WAY up.

So we ratchet-strapped it together and got it back to Crawfords. After about an hour and a half in the shop, everything was welded back together. We didn't heat up the cast iron though, and on my way back to Murphy, hairline cracks formed in the brand new welds. So the Jeep is still up there. Needing to be back at school Sunday night and without a trailer, I left it at Smoky Mtn. Offroad.

So what is the correct way to join the two? The whole reason it was an issue to begin with is because it's a Waggy 44 and therefore came stock with leaf perches, but no UCA mounts that Kevin's truss is designed to fit over. So even though I bought the 44 set up for an XJ with that UCA mount in place, it wasn't welded on correctly, so it snapped off.

robselina
11-15-2004, 03:45 PM
bummer. I've turned up the heat on the Millermatic 175 and haven't had any issues so far with my welds with cast to mild.....

If you're having issues, switch to an arc welder and use a nickel rod, that's the mostly right way to do it without having to get into ovens and the like....

Nordic1
11-15-2004, 06:21 PM
Do what I did to that god forsaken truss:

http://www.fototime.com/%7B5431C516-EBA7-4C32-9A46-4FBEAC4A823E%7D/picture.JPG
Truss cut in half, and then unbolted
http://www.fototime.com/%7B79F5E5EA-97A2-4575-9C17-37B676D41FB0%7D/picture.JPG
http://www.fototime.com/%7BB6FACC37-50DB-4D2D-9E7B-8960C7F65BF8%7D/picture.JPG
http://www.fototime.com/%7BAD8B7613-37AB-4D9B-9E50-44962F387369%7D/picture.JPG
http://www.fototime.com/%7B5CC611BC-D481-40DC-82B1-FC560960BC6E%7D/picture.JPG
http://www.fototime.com/%7B938C4ED4-3774-4294-87A6-DA663FD40643%7D/picture.JPG
http://www.fototime.com/%7B529551FD-34D8-4B12-A92C-9AA3FF9CBAE1%7D/picture.JPG

http://www.fototime.com/%7BE14E5E37-93CF-4F86-A562-EAFA236C2421%7D/picture.GIF
BLING BLING


It rides a little better and the front end doesn't shake anymore. It's a rubicon express upper control arm with the end cut off and then the end is angled and rewelded to the UCA mount. Then thats angle iron with a tab made of 1/4" welded to it and then that whole gig was welded to Kevin's front arms. I get a little bit of tire rub on the pass side but other than that it's IMO a much better setup. I have ripped my truss off a handful of times and I got sick of rewelding it. Although I will prob Claytonify the front when I do that axle.

rubicondave33
11-15-2004, 06:29 PM
If you use nickel welding rod, you can weld cast iron without a problem. I had to weld steel gussets to some cast iron on a xj I used to own.

rubicondave33
11-15-2004, 06:29 PM
If you use nickel welding rod, you can weld cast iron without a problem. I had to weld steel gussets to some cast iron on a xj I used to own.

nathaniel
11-15-2004, 10:57 PM
So now you have one upper arm on The pass. side?

Do explain how the ride is going to change at all by adding that arm.

I can tell that whoever welded the truss on had no idea what they were doing since it has like 2 1" welds in the pic

Just an FYI when welding that truss on get a certified welder to do it and weld the entire vally between the truss and the spring pad/shock plate (ie 4+" of weld) a good welder can fill the gap there without a problem.

I also would recommend welding the cast with nickel arc rods but preheat with a torch to 400 and use a temp. crayton to tell when its hot enough and then keep the heat in afterward with some insulation.

BTW whoever is welding with the nickel better be good with arc welding because its not an easy rod to weld with.

Nordic1
11-16-2004, 01:37 AM
we cranked Jerod's welder all the way up and the welds still broke. Certified welder or not the truss isn't a fnatastic idea and will break.


I have radius arms on both sides... I just didn't have time to ttake more pices. My jeep doesn't det mini-DW like it use to and the steering no longer shakes.

ATL ZJ
11-16-2004, 02:39 AM
Well I have some good pics but Photobucket won't take any of the .tiff or .bmp files that I have. Any suggestions?

I think that I may end up running that 4 link (or is it a 5 link?)- I have heard it called both by different groups of knowledgeable people- with 2 lowers, 2 uppers, and a trackbar. At high speed, I have a good bit of steering shimmy with only the one upper. And my bumpsteer often translates into deathwobble at the right speeds.

FinlayZJ
11-16-2004, 12:07 PM
Well I have some good pics but Photobucket won't take any of the .tiff or .bmp files that I have. Any suggestions?

Half ass non-computer geek way is to open them up in paint and save them as another file type.


btw- damn that sucks.

ATL ZJ
11-16-2004, 01:10 PM
Yes, it looks like I took it on the moon and let a 4 year old go to town with some markers on it, but you can kind of tell what's going on.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v125/atlzj/retryCarnage1.gif

Check out the pinion angle here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v125/atlzj/retryCarnage3.gif

nathaniel
11-16-2004, 10:07 PM
I'll try and get some pics tomorrow of one properly welded up. BTW, not one that has been installed at KOR has had a single issue with the truss in respect to breaking it. Some issues with Procomp mislabeling shocks and causing issues but no breakage.

It shouldn't be necessary to crank the welder all the way up to get the proper penetration since the one of the pieces you are welding to is 1/8". Welder here is set to ~3.5 wire speed and heat setting of D. 220 welder.

Back on topic. From what I can see of the cast welding there was no penetration in the cast. I would cut grooves in the cast for the mount and try and find a way to get a plug weld in there as well. But the controo arm mounts shouldn't be all that necessary with the truss.

ALWJ
11-17-2004, 03:11 PM
A little outside the box thinking... I haven't seen anybody do it like this, but it works for me. No welding to the cast. It's a 1/4" truss that is welded to the tube on one side and then bolted to the leaf-spring perch with a u-bolt on the other side. It's been working fine so far. BTW the front end is out of a 78 f150 extended cab and I'm running an UCA on both driver and passenger side.

http://www.fototime.com/39C3D73BF5475B0/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/FA5410981786121/standard.jpg

ATL ZJ
11-17-2004, 05:21 PM
ALWJ, funny how that idea crossed my mind after the truss broke. Next time I'll be designing my suspension myself... but the current one may be repaired with something VERY similar to your setup with an upper on the other side as well.

nate
11-18-2004, 08:42 AM
RE sells a kit that has a truss exactly like that.

http://www.rubiconexpress.com/dynamic/mainpage.asp?folderid=218

RufftyTuffty
11-18-2004, 10:51 AM
I also would recommend welding the cast with nickel arc rods but preheat with a torch to 400 and use a temp. crayton to tell when its hot enough and then keep the heat in afterward with some insulation.

:idea: Ditto...what he said. :D

KevinF
12-30-2004, 10:48 PM
we cranked Jerod's welder all the way up and the welds still broke. Certified welder or not the truss isn't a fnatastic idea and will break.


I have radius arms on both sides... I just didn't have time to ttake more pices. My jeep doesn't det mini-DW like it use to and the steering no longer shakes.

Did I hear that your front end came apart on you shortly after you removed that truss that was the "bain of your existence" as you have called it previously. I'm not pointing fingers here, Chase, but so far, everyone who has welded the truss in the way it was designed to be welded (including me, who has the original one) has not had any problems with it. It sounds like Ben modified the design and welded it to cast, which, as he specifically mentions, is not the way it was designed, but due to limitations with the replacement axle, he chose to do things differently. I know you had a hard-on for getting rid of that truss from Day 1 when you and Jerod had trouble getting the kit installed...but didn't your new and improved design come apart shortly afterward as well? This really is a matter of proper installation rather than parts that are not made well from "the factory", Chase. Had it been welded in properly the first time you'd not have had a problem, just like all of the other owners out there who installed it the way it was designed to be. Just to reiterate, your problem was NOT a design flaw, though you seem to point the finger in that direction.

Kevin

KevinF
12-30-2004, 10:51 PM
Ben:
Nathaniel is exactly right about the steel to cast methodology. Nickel rod and preheating the cast is the only way to make certain that it'll work the first time.

HTH,
Kevin

ATL ZJ
12-31-2004, 03:07 AM
Who is Ben? My name is Cam, I think those posts were directed to me. I haven't had any more trouble with the truss after the mount that the truss attaches to was welded to the cast using the proper method. It's been on there that way for about a month now, but we'll have to see how the welding job holds up when I get it on the trail. The truss itself was fine and actually allowed me to drive about 5 miles from Crawfords to almost the pay station of Tellico, all with broken welds when I didn't realize anything was broken. Just the passenger side of the truss was connected, and the vehicle was still driveable since the upper link remained connected.

Nordic1
12-31-2004, 05:29 AM
Did I hear that your front end came apart on you shortly after you removed that truss that was the "bain of your existence" as you have called it previously. I'm not pointing fingers here, Chase, but so far, everyone who has welded the truss in the way it was designed to be welded (including me, who has the original one) has not had any problems with it. It sounds like Ben modified the design and welded it to cast, which, as he specifically mentions, is not the way it was designed, but due to limitations with the replacement axle, he chose to do things differently. I know you had a hard-on for getting rid of that truss from Day 1 when you and Jerod had trouble getting the kit installed...but didn't your new and improved design come apart shortly afterward as well? This really is a matter of proper installation rather than parts that are not made well from "the factory", Chase. Had it been welded in properly the first time you'd not have had a problem, just like all of the other owners out there who installed it the way it was designed to be. Just to reiterate, your problem was NOT a design flaw, though you seem to point the finger in that direction.

Kevin


Lol I thought about that the other day... How ironic that your truss never broke and the Radius arms Jerod and I made broke on the first wheeling trip. I reread what I posted and it was a little rude, sorry. You're almost right that getting rid of that trus "was the bain of my existance" (lol although I never rememeber using that term) but mine was so probomatic and so unique as nobody else had my problems. I'm holding onto it as a sovenire but the heims on the torquer arms are wated as well... The both have quite a bit of play in them them and I'll let you play with it a little when I finially make it down there.

Jim311
12-31-2004, 07:43 AM
Are the majority of axles made from cast iron? If you don't have nickel rods (or even a stick welder for that matter) is there any alternative? I don't want to have catastrophic failure on this 8.8 if I try to install the brackets myself....

JeepinHank
12-31-2004, 11:53 AM
Only the center section of the axle is cast. The axle tubes are plain ol' steel tubing that's pressed in. If you're welding tabs to the tubes, MIG welding is fine. You just need to use the right process (as described by Nathaniel) if you're welding to the cast center section itself. I'm building a truss for my rear axle out of 2" square tubing and welding it to the tubes on each side. I haven't decided if I'm going to worry about welding the truss to the cast center or not.

Jim311
12-31-2004, 06:17 PM
What about the area where the axle tubes are pressed into the housing itself? On the 8.8s it's recommended that you run a bead all the way around each side to keep the tube from spinning. Should nickel rod be used there?

nathaniel
12-31-2004, 09:39 PM
What about the area where the axle tubes are pressed into the housing itself? On the 8.8s it's recommended that you run a bead all the way around each side to keep the tube from spinning. Should nickel rod be used there?

yes to using nickel rod. They really don't need to be welded all the way around. Mine are two beads about 1.5" long each.

Alaska ZJ
01-02-2005, 02:17 PM
There is a difference between Cast IRON and Cast STEEL. No need for nickel on Steel.

Oh and on the 8.8 Of the ones that I have sold and installed I tack it in like 6 spots all the way around. Then alternate welding between the tacks.

No probs. No Nickel....;)

KevinF
01-02-2005, 09:18 PM
Who is Ben? My name is Cam, I think those posts were directed to me.

Oh, sorry, Cam. I was thinking of a different person in Atlanta. Glad to hear that you got it all repaired and that so far it's worked well for you.

Happy New Year,
Kevin

KevinF
01-02-2005, 09:31 PM
Lol I thought about that the other day... How ironic that your truss never broke and the Radius arms Jerod and I made broke on the first wheeling trip. I reread what I posted and it was a little rude, sorry. You're almost right that getting rid of that trus "was the bain of my existance" (lol although I never rememeber using that term) but mine was so probomatic and so unique as nobody else had my problems. I'm holding onto it as a sovenire but the heims on the torquer arms are wated as well... The both have quite a bit of play in them them and I'll let you play with it a little when I finally make it down there.

Heims do wear over time, but thankfully can be replaced for cheap. Nonetheless, apology accepted. I saw your photo of your middle finger and started seeing red. That was fairly offensive, and aside from that, makes people who don't know better think I build shoddy stuff. I take a lot of pride in my work, Chase. If I didn't, I would not have let it bother me. People depend on me to do a good job the first time, and I don't want anyone to think that I've let you down somehow. I know you didn't like that truss because of the problems that you had with it fitting on your Jeep, and it may be ugly, but it serves(ed) a very valid purpose as you found out. As far as I can tell, I didn't deserve a middle finger directed toward something that I built. It wasn't a defect in the quality of the part itself...

Kevin

Nordic1
01-02-2005, 09:44 PM
yea that was just my fustration with all of the things it had hit... consider that photo gone (lol as in it's really gone). And once again, sorry for kinda pissin ya off.

OverkillZJ
01-02-2005, 10:00 PM
That's right Kevin, KICK HIS ASS!



;)

Jim311
01-02-2005, 11:56 PM
There is a difference between Cast IRON and Cast STEEL. No need for nickel on Steel.

Oh and on the 8.8 Of the ones that I have sold and installed I tack it in like 6 spots all the way around. Then alternate welding between the tacks.

No probs. No Nickel....;)


Fuck it then. I'm going to run a weld with my flux core wire then all the way around to be safe. I'm itching for something to weld on :lol:

AprilzWarrior
01-03-2005, 01:07 AM
we cranked Jerod's welder all the way up and the welds still broke. Certified welder or not the truss isn't a fantastic idea and will break.


Chase,
Dont assume ! My welder was not "cranked" it was set accordingly, And that truss was WRONG to begin with as other designs Ill get into !




Did I hear that your front end came apart on you shortly after you removed that truss that was the "bain of your existence" as you have called it previously.


Due to material that was not thick enough, not my welding ! And Ill admit that it was a spur of the moment call, and busted under off road condition.





I'm not pointing fingers here, Chase, but so far, everyone who has welded the truss in the way it was designed to be welded (including me, who has the original one) has not had any problems with it. It sounds like Ben modified the design and welded it to cast, which, as he specifically mentions, is not the way it was designed, but due to limitations with the replacement axle, he chose to do things differently. I know you had a hard-on for getting rid of that truss from Day 1 when you and Jerod had trouble getting the kit installed...but didn't your new and improved design come apart shortly afterward as well? This really is a matter of proper installation rather than parts that are not made well from "the factory", Chase. Had it been welded in properly the first time you'd not have had a problem, just like all of the other owners out there who installed it the way it was designed to be. Just to reiterate, your problem was NOT a design flaw, though you seem to point the finger in that direction.

Kevin

Ok,
You are pointing fingers ! And here is a response.

Im not on ANYONES bandwagon, and will let it fly !!

Pictures are worth a thousand words !

1. The Truss is a joke, The truss actually welds to the Spring Perchs and less than 3/4" to the Housing, NOT TO MENTION it had a HUGE GAP between the 3/8" part of the truss and the housing... see pic...
Gap being 3/8" at the Top of the CA mount, and 1/2" at the axle tube.
http://fototime.com/B67834A9336B82D/standard.jpg

Is that installer fault ??

Oh wait.. here is a pic of my welds... BTW they NEVER BROKE, just cracked... Keep in mind that with ALL that TRUSS there is only like two 1" spot to weld it down.
http://fototime.com/A892A423DEDEA7A/standard.jpg

2. "Kevins Trac Bar" aka JKS bar, with a Modified stock upper bracket. Its Ok IMO, but when you mix this with the "Truss" there is a "LITTLE" problem.... Ummm They HIT !

Now, you can see in the picture that Trac Bar mount come down and contacts the Truss (shiny part), its shiny because I was grinding it down for clearance.
http://fototime.com/69CE5E7901CA3CF/standard.jpg


3. Tri Link Truss. (my grandpa talking to Chase, "did you build that in high school ?" LOL This was supposed to slide in between the Unibody Frame Rails, NOT. 5/16"" Gap on the Drivers and 1/4" on the passenger side... and that was just to get it centered !!
http://fototime.com/93AB04D93944ACE/standard.jpg


4. Lower I know how it happened, Ive heard the excuse. Mismeasurement during welding. But why ship them out like this ?
http://fototime.com/C62933ABBB170DD/standard.jpg

5.Skid Plate... or lack thereof...
Chase's skid looks like a horse with a hard-on, should it really hang that low ? OH OH, wait... what about the support like this pic on your site, it shows a brace coming off the skid going to the unibody... installer error probably !!!
http://fototime.com/99E619BBE1ABEBE/standard.jpg


6. Chase wanted to shorten his rear Lower Control Arms. Well the awesome kit I installed was not adjustable, so I told him that Kevin now "offers" sells Lower Adjustable arms and he should look into them.
Chase ordered the arms for me to install, once I had them I measured his FIXED lowers to know how much to shorten them, and guess what, and FULL COMPRESSION the "Adjustable" arms are the same as the fixed, so Chase is screwed again.
(sure I could cut and modify this stuff but he did pay "top dollar" for "quality" products !


7. Microsoft Word.... Save As.


:arrow: :!:

Nordic1
01-03-2005, 01:47 AM
we cranked Jerod's welder all the way up


Dont assume ! My welder was not "cranked" it was set accordingly,



x2 that notion. That was my mistake, Jerod knows his shit especially when it comes to welding (haha especially since I know very little about welding... or should I just post pics of my goofy looking welds).




As for the rod ends... If I knew where my digital was, I would post some pics of the torquer arm. The rod ends themselves look moderately simple to change out. The rod ends themselves did wear out in just under a year and didn't undergo all that much wheeling (although I do sometimes drive pretty hard)... somebody chime in because I knew very little about rod ends but shouldn't they last longer? Or was a year about right?


I'll add stuff to this thread as needed but I have no intension of starting a flame war. I'm outa here for the night... see ya

ATL ZJ
01-03-2005, 02:03 AM
I had similar problems with the fitment of my LA system from Kevin.

First off, Kevin's instruction novel offers more safety precautions than an airline crash pamplet, but no precise direction as to where to measure to for the rear lower control arm bracket placement on the framerail. Could it be to the edge of the bracket, the point at which the bracket contacts the framerail, or the hole in the new bracket? Who knows? The instructions sure as hell don't say. Mike Beach didn't when I called. But he "left" KOR. And Kevin was out of town, of course. This all forced me to make an educated guess that turned out to be the wrong one. The brackets ended up getting welded to the framerail too far forward, making the rear arms too short, and completely changing the geometry of the rear suspension. So the front of the rear wheelwells came down and sat on the tires when it came down off jackstands.

Also I was getting terrible deathwobble. Kevin made the little mistake of including 1/2" bolts instead of the needed 9/16" that fit the bushings. He kindly informed me of this when I called. It's the little oversights that make their way out to customers that are what's scary about this kit.

Nordic1
01-03-2005, 02:13 AM
I got crazy DW from the track bar as well but for a different reason. It wasn't Kevin's setup but it was the rubber bushings in the track bar. My PSC steering box was pulverizing the rubber bushings at a high-rate. I had Mike send me handfuls of bushings when he worked there (he was awesome... the first set of bushings I needed in a hurry. Mike had them boxed and ready to ship before I had time to log into paypal and send the money). Long story short I've gone through 2 or 3 sets of bushings since I installed the PSC box and the PSC has been in for a few months maybe? My first set of bushings lasted forever but that was with the stock box. I ordered the RE track bar system which has a solid joint on one end and hopefully that will slow the rate that I need to replace bushings and such.

Alaska ZJ
01-03-2005, 09:25 AM
Why in the hell would you want to shorten your arms? I thought the point was to get MORE wheelbase and MORE departure angle?

Jim311
01-03-2005, 01:06 PM
Oh boy.. this is going to escalate into a flame war quick :o

BigDaveZJ
01-03-2005, 02:00 PM
Oh boy.. this is going to escalate into a flame war quick :o

It's being watched closely . . .

Nordic1
01-03-2005, 04:09 PM
Why in the hell would you want to shorten your arms? I thought the point was to get MORE wheelbase and MORE departure angle?

Well I rotated my LCA mounts on my 8.8 up so I had some more ground clearance at the axle. This pushed the axle back several inches. I wouldn't have a problem with this but the springs are sitting at funny angles (I'll post pics of it later). I'm either going to make shorter arms and bring the axle forward a bit, cut off and reweld the spring perch at a different angle or build a new spring perch on the unibody (all that work for wha??? lol pics soon). Kevin's adjustable arms would have been perfect moving my axle forwards or backward a few inches has my LCA mounts been in the stock location but they didn't work so well for me with the LCA rotated up like that.

chadjans
01-03-2005, 05:55 PM
Why did you mount your LCA in front of the housing? You just lost your skid plates for your driveshaft. Running a stock shaft? They aren't too thick. What is the distance differential between your lower and upper mounts? Mounting LCA in front of the housing is overrated. You gain nothing.

Chad

Nordic1
01-03-2005, 06:05 PM
From this:
http://www.fototime.com/%7B54E1EEF5-A2C6-43B3-902C-36F90A7B39FE%7D/picture.JPG
To this:
http://www.fototime.com/%7B5ABC5B12-B85F-42BA-B3DA-06C881D29EAF%7D/picture.JPG

It's a southbay driveline and it's still kinda protected.

KevinF
01-03-2005, 07:24 PM
Fair enough, Jerod. Chase called me out, I guess I indirectly called you out, so let's go for some clarity rather than beating each other up.

A little preface: Chase's kit was one of the first few that we sent out, and we had some issues with it, as Jerod has taken pictures of and posted. I'm not at all offended; it's stuff that he and I and Chase and I have spoken about on the phone as to how to resolve. We made several mistakes, as noted below:

Problem: upper truss hit Chase's track bar conversion
Solution for Chase: grind the tab off, per Jerod's picture
Solution going forward: We re-jigged the truss rearward, lopped that unnecessary tab off the upper front stantion, and brought the center piece further rearward

Problem: upper rear crossmember didn't fit Chase's rig correctly
Solution for Chase: Jerod used some shims and welded it in
Solution going forward: I've had some that were 1/4" off, and I've had some that had to be pounded in so that they will fit. Jeep's measurements vary, unfortunately. That spec was taken off of my Jeep and 1/16" was subtracted from the measurement so that you can get it into Jeeps that have slightly more narrow frame rails. No solution as far as I can tell, aside from offering shims to those who have slightly wider frame rails.

Problem: upper rear crossmember looks like something built in Chase's high school shop due to hand-built brackets
Solution going forward: Brackets are now laser cut and bent, rather than hand-fabricated. They don't work any better or worse, but aesthetically there is a large difference

Problem: Jerod welded the truss to the cast housing
Solution: Per instructions, truss should have been welded to the spring perch only. This is where the cracking came from, I'm guessing. From Chase's conversations with me it was never clear to me that it was welded to the cast housing, or I'd have immediately suggested that was the problem.

Problem: Truss didn't fit properly on Chase's rig, per Jerod's photos
Solution: Again with the Jeep variances. Fit perfectly on my Jeep, fit perfectly on about half of the ones we've installed, and left a gap on the other half. We just simply drew the sides toward the perch with a C clamp on the ones that were off and welded the hell out of it.

Problem: Truss didn't have much area to weld, per Jerod
Solution: Pulling the mounts outward against the spring perch would have allowed for more welding space. Also, welding it to the control arm bracket allows for more surface area. Bear in mind that this was the first one that we'd heard of problems with, or I'd have suggested that.

Problem: Lower control arm mount hole was not in proper placement to allow for correct fitment
Cause: As Jerod said, we just plain screwed up. We measured it for 3/16" material and then chose to go with 1/4" which had a thicker web instead for the brackets. Likewise, we measured it initially with a bushing housing that was thinner. Those two things caused fitment issues. Rest assured that after this was brought to my attention, there were NONE that left the shop with the same mistake, which answers Jerod's question, "why ship them out like this".

Problem: Skid plate hanging too low
Solution: loosen front bolts to rotate it upward, install third arm, and add a flat washer if necessary to the front bolts
Solution2: Skid plate is no longer pre-drilled for the support arm so that you can place it where you want it on the skid.

Problem: "Kevin's instruction novel offers more safety precautions than an airline crash pamplet"
Cause: Common sense is not common practice.
Solution: Reiterate how to safely install kit. Sorry if you didn't like the safety precautions, Cam.

Problem: Install instructions did not state clearly placement of rear lower control arm mount
Solution: I think Cam was the only one who had this problem, frankly, but I clarified the instructions nonetheless after Cam brought it to my attention.

Problem: Mike Beach "left" KOR
Solution: There's a lot more to the story that you don't know about that.
Mike is right, though. Bad taste on my part to bring up personal issues in a public forum. Message edited.

Anyway, I'm brutally honest, and will openly admit that we had trouble with some of the early kits. After making maybe 20 or 30 changes to the system based on feedback we'd received from installers, I am happy to announce that none of the last dozen or so kits we've sent out have had anyone bring anything to my attention with respect to the installation or problems during it. Hopefully it's been ironed out properly.

Jerod, my apologies. Had I known that the truss was welded to the cast portion of the housing I would have simply offered that as a cause rather than indirectly suggesting that the quality of your welds was the issue. If that's the only place there was cracking, now I know why. I understood from talking to Chase that the welds that held the truss to the spring perches were breaking, which would tell me that THOSE welds must not have been done right. I will CONTINUE recommending your services for work that needs to be done in the Northern CA area, though I won't assume that you'd install any other KOR products due to the difficulties that you had. I truly am sorry for the trouble that we caused you and Chase as well as the misunderstanding I had of which welds were breaking.

Very Sincerely,
Kevin

AprilzWarrior
01-04-2005, 12:03 AM
Problem: Truss didn't have much area to weld, per Jerod
Solution: Pulling the mounts outward against the spring perch would have allowed for more welding space. Also, welding it to the control arm bracket allows for more surface area. Bear in mind that this was the first one that we'd heard of problems with, or I'd have suggested that.

Pulling out 3/8" Plate with a square tube support never dawned on me... hell to even move it, it would have needed to be heated... BUT with the powder coating its safe to assume that it didnt need to be modified.

Oh well.




Problem: Skid plate hanging too low
Solution: loosen front bolts to rotate it upward, install third arm, and add a flat washer if necessary to the front bolts
Solution2: Skid plate is no longer pre-drilled for the support arm so that you can place it where you want it on the skid.


Solution 2 is a sure bet !





Problem: "Kevin's instruction novel offers more safety precautions than an airline crash pamplet"
Cause: Common sense is not common practice.
Solution: Reiterate how to safely install kit. Sorry if you didn't like the safety precautions, Cam.

I found the instructions to be very good actually, cpet for the rear Tri Link setup, we talked on the phone about this... not a big deal as you do have pics of it on the site.




Problem: Install instructions did not state clearly placement of rear lower control arm mount
Solution: I think Cam was the only one who had this problem, frankly, but I clarified the instructions nonetheless after Cam brought it to my attention.

Again no problems...




Jerod, my apologies. I will CONTINUE recommending your services for work that needs to be done in the Northern CA area, though I won't assume that you'd install any other KOR products due to the difficulties that you had. I truly am sorry for the trouble that we caused you and Chase as well as the misunderstanding I had of which welds were breaking.


Very Sincerely,
Kevin


I think we washed the laundry and things will dry just fine. I do installs and fab work, but if someone wants to buy your kit, so be it. It does sound like the kinks are worked out... I will still do the installs.

OF COURSE, I will be expecting a 10% cut on all products that are recommended by me.


;)

ATL ZJ
01-04-2005, 02:35 AM
It's not that I didn't like the safety precautions, but I think a simple disclaimer at the beginning informing the buyer that you are not liable for whatever actions he decides to take in the installation process, reminding him to use common sense, and reiterating your status as a LLC would be plenty. Everyone who installs one of these LA systems has hopefully worked on a Jeep before and therefore understands the possible consequences of not using caution when doing so. ...But as long as they include the needed information, which I understand they now do, the instructions should be up to my standards ;) .

To anyone considering buying Kevin's kit: Yes, I did have some fitment issues, but don't let this discourage you. Kevin is the type of guy who does what he says he will, so I know that they've been corrected. The system works wonderfully now onroad and off. I realize that I'm in no place to criticize the kit because I've never designed a long arm system myself, and errors in the first few batches are always to be expected. Kevin really seems to take customer feedback to heart. I know this isn't JU and people don't need to be told what wiper blades and long arm systems to buy, but I don't think this thread is any reason to scratch Kevin's system off the longarm list for those planning to buy.

BigDaveZJ
01-04-2005, 01:28 PM
Just wanted to say thanks to those involved for keeping this a very civil and productive discussion.

Jim311
01-04-2005, 10:33 PM
Just wanted to say thanks to those involved for keeping this a very civil and productive discussion.


Werd... typically on other forums flame wars have ensued and no useful information is ever produced. Kudos.

AprilzWarrior
01-05-2005, 12:14 AM
Just wanted to say thanks to those involved for keeping this a very civil and productive discussion.


Werd... typically on other forums flame wars have ensued and no useful information is ever produced. Kudos.


Thats the difference when civilized adults disagree, or have different opinions.

Not my dad will beat up your dad crap.

Jim311
01-05-2005, 12:27 AM
Just wanted to say thanks to those involved for keeping this a very civil and productive discussion.


Werd... typically on other forums flame wars have ensued and no useful information is ever produced. Kudos.


Thats the difference when civilized adults disagree, or have different opinions.

Not my dad will beat up your dad crap.


Yeah.. well.. uh... you smell like poo!

Cue-Ball
01-05-2005, 02:48 AM
Just wanted to say thanks to those involved for keeping this a very civil and productive discussion.


Werd... typically on other forums flame wars have ensued and no useful information is ever produced. Kudos.


Thats the difference when civilized adults disagree, or have different opinions.

Not my dad will beat up your dad crap.

You can say that again.

mikebeach
01-05-2005, 09:23 PM
Problem: Mike Beach "left" KOR
Solution: There's a lot more to the story that you don't know about that. Let's just say that KOR didn't used to have a "shrinkage" account on the books.


Are you serious Kevin? I NEVER stole anything from Kevinsoffroad, I dont even own a Jeep, so what good are jeep parts? Not like you have a massive inventory of anything :roll: If you didnt take so many vacations and leave all the time maybe you would know what was going on around your own shop. Ive been hearing from many people that you have been bad mouthing me and thats just uncalled for as I havent said a single bad thing about you or your operation over there,. And beleive me, I know plenty of trash about you. I cant beleive you have the brass to come on a public forum and say that, after all the shit I did over there. If you have a problem with me, you know my number and e-mail address.
Mike

Jim311
01-05-2005, 09:53 PM
:shock:

Nordic1
01-05-2005, 10:04 PM
:shock: x2

Cue-Ball
01-05-2005, 10:20 PM
Okay Okay, let's not let this get out of hand now.

I have personally met both Mike and Kevin, we all went out to dinner the last time I was in AZ. and they are both hell of nice guys, so let's just try to keep this civilized shall we.

KevinF
01-06-2005, 05:52 PM
Just wanted to say thanks to those involved for keeping this a very civil and productive discussion.


Werd... typically on other forums flame wars have ensued and no useful information is ever produced. Kudos.


Thats the difference when civilized adults disagree, or have different opinions.

Not my dad will beat up your dad crap.

Actually, my dad is kind of a puss...your dad could probably kick his ass. :)

Jerod, the reason for the powdercoating on that front truss is so that it doesn't rust elsewhere. I agree that it was a pain to try to move those stantions outward. We've really had to wrestle with them sometimes. Sometimes we get luck and they slip right into place. The alternative would be to offer that piece as a weld-in-position deal with two or three pieces, but it would be so difficult to get it to be perfectly positioned if we were to try to explain how to do it.

Cam, you have NO idea about the lack of skill sets that some of our customers in the past have had. I've gotten calls at 1am from people who can't figure out how to compress a gas-charged shock. The safety reiterations are NOT from a legal disclaimer standpoint. It's because I care about people and don't want some jackass who has never welded before try to save some money and install the kit himself with his high school friend and have something come loose and kill them both. Life is too fragile to just gloss over safety, PARTICULARLY on something as "invasive" an install as a Long Arm system is. Getting sued was not even on the list of worries when I was writing that install guide, frankly. I just don't want someone to get hurt if they do something wrong, and thought that by reiterating over and again how important it is to have someone installing who knows what they are doing, that I might scare those who don't have the skill set necessary AND are lacking common sense. Again, sorry that you were offended or that it bothered you or whatever. I'm just trying to look out for everyone.

Happy New Year!
Kevin

ATL ZJ
01-06-2005, 06:47 PM
Cam, you have NO idea about the lack of skill sets that some of our customers in the past have had. I've gotten calls at 1am from people who can't figure out how to compress a gas-charged shock. The safety reiterations are NOT from a legal disclaimer standpoint. It's because I care about people and don't want some jackass who has never welded before try to save some money and install the kit himself with his high school friend and have something come loose and kill them both. Life is too fragile to just gloss over safety, PARTICULARLY on something as "invasive" an install as a Long Arm system is. Getting sued was not even on the list of worries when I was writing that install guide, frankly. I just don't want someone to get hurt if they do something wrong, and thought that by reiterating over and again how important it is to have someone installing who knows what they are doing, that I might scare those who don't have the skill set necessary AND are lacking common sense. Again, sorry that you were offended or that it bothered you or whatever. I'm just trying to look out for everyone.

Happy New Year!
Kevin

Well that is very understandable. Looks like I was wrong in my assumptions. Hope business is still going well.

OverkillZJ
01-06-2005, 06:48 PM
Kevin, you could just remove the warnings and let the problem solve itself ;)


I hate stupid people.

KevinF
01-06-2005, 10:01 PM
Kevin, you could just remove the warnings and let the problem solve itself ;)


I hate stupid people.

LOL.

KevinF
01-07-2005, 11:46 AM
Okay Okay, let's not let this get out of hand now.

Bad taste on my part. Message edited.

Kevin

Hurricane 4x4
02-18-2005, 10:32 PM
Just wanted to say thanks to those involved for keeping this a very civil and productive discussion.

I'll just add my kudos to you guys... I am a moderator at www.allthingsmoto.com and I wish some of our members were 1/2 as mature as you all.

ATL ZJ
02-19-2005, 01:05 AM
Haha, well thank you. I never envisioned this post getting to this point, but I think it's a testament to the class and great technical contributions capable of the membership here. go mallcrawlin! ha

OverkillZJ
02-19-2005, 01:16 AM
It's simple: Ban those who don't contribute, and move crap to chit chat ;)

But yes, thank you all for keeping this a clean discussion.