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Nate Cannon
11-05-2004, 05:46 PM
Fuck it, I'm done with this d30 bullshit. I'm trying to pick up a 44 cheap and I want to go leafs in the front. I've seen it done, I just want a pic of the front mount for the shackles, no SR here.

This isn't a "why leafs" post, this is a "I've made up my mind, if you disagree with me blow yourself, if not help me out"

Thanks.
-Nate

MaineZJ
11-05-2004, 06:57 PM
I'd start by plating the front "uniframe" area.
either go with outboard hangers like on CJ's or with Yota style SAS swaps

speedmontzj
11-05-2004, 07:44 PM
i guess you will be using a ford 44. are you picking one up with leaf mounts or you adding them. there is not much room without getting into the centersection on the driverside. a chevy d44 has the pad cast into the housing.

Alaska ZJ
11-05-2004, 08:40 PM
I have a D44 5 on 4.5 Drivers Drop. 75 bones plus shipping. Has the leaf mount on the pumpkin for you and everything.

Nate Cannon
11-05-2004, 09:07 PM
what gears are in it??
-Nate

OverkillZJ
11-05-2004, 09:08 PM
I don't agre with leafs, but its not my rig so I can't wait to see how you do it :)

gearhead313
11-06-2004, 10:57 AM
Last time i checked, there should be enough room to slide box into the front frame rails around 7-8" back before it starts to turn up...that might be a start.


Do u know if the leafs will have to sit on the outside of the fram rails?

Swamp boy
11-06-2004, 02:46 PM
Friend of mine ..(Locked-up) did a leaf spring front on his XJ..It shouldnt be much difference.. I can get some info from him if you would like...


Back when I was having lots of DW issues I thought about going leafs.. I couldnt get the control arms adjusted right and then when I finally got them adjusted I broke an upper... :evil:

Anyway.. Good luck..

Nate Cannon
11-06-2004, 02:55 PM
XJ frame is extremely similar, anything like that would be fine. I think I might go consult XJ/TJ guys because they don't whine about little mods all the time.

Anyway, thanks for the input overkill, why not follow my advice in the first post.

I'll admit so far this is an ill-conceived plan. I know it's been done though and I know it's been done on XJ's and TJ's so it shouldn't be too much different.
-Nate

Alaska ZJ
11-06-2004, 06:36 PM
3.5somethin....

I would build a entire new x member (you know the one with the bumper holes in it) and sleeve the Unirail atleast 12 inches back. Hell maybe even all the way to the Motor mounts.

Make the new X member your new bumper as well.

If you go with a Offset Leaf you can get a pretty damn good approach angle.

I like the Shackle Reversal but only for onroad ride. If you bent on keeping the shackle in the front I would just try to get a pretty flat leaf.

Also build a anti inversion shackle. I have repaired many a YJ and CJ that inverted the shackle on a High speed Unload....

OverkillZJ
11-06-2004, 09:39 PM
Anyway, thanks for the input overkill, why not follow my advice in the first post.

Whatever. I didn't say "why leafs."

Only that I was curious of the final result, and good luck with it. I'm so sorry that got under your skin. :roll:

Swamp boy
11-07-2004, 12:39 AM
This is what I have so far...

Thanks southern XJ for knowing where it was.... :D

http://www.patricksnorton.com/cherokee/tech/leafs.php

I made a post to ask him about a write-up..
Ill let you know what I find..

Cody
11-07-2004, 04:42 AM
I wheeled today with an XJ version of my jeep, but it had leafs front and rear.

It sucked hard core. It couldn't do shit. No flex, no traction, bouncy, etc. etc. I hope the front leafs turn out better for you than for it.

That being said, I think you are taking an evolutoinary step backwards, but I support it as I think it can be pulled off and work well. Keep in mind that a traction bar may be necessary to keep hop down and driveshafts from pulling apart.

I personally think it will be more difficult to swap to leafs than it will be to just swap in an axle and go with coils. Either way you have to weld to the front axle, at least with the coils you can leave the frame side crap alone. I don't think you will gain that much from going to leafs...

All that being said, I don't support a dana 44. Waste of time and money. Go squate a Bob's house untile he gets tired enough of you to help you build some sort of 14 bolt/60/9" steering axle hibreed.

at any rate, I got your message. I'll call you tomorrow sometime.

Cody

gthaefner
11-07-2004, 10:22 AM
I have a pic of a friend that converted to leafs in the front of his xj. Dont know much about it but i have some pics

http://kinggamers.no-ip.info/kinggamers/grant/random%20pics/DSC00041.JPG

http://kinggamers.no-ip.info/kinggamers/grant/random%20pics/DSC00042.JPG

http://www.core4x4club.com/members/benp/IM001144.JPG

http://www.core4x4club.com/members/benp/IM001148.JPG

GRANT

Nate Cannon
11-07-2004, 07:39 PM
One of the other reasons I want to do this is because my front long arms are a hack job. They are slightly different lengths, they're bent and they're tearing themselfs apart binding. I also don't like how slinky they are on the road, and with the rear flex I have I can give up some in the front for stability. Also, it took me about 4 years to break my d30, I think a 44 will be fine for me, I really don't have the money for a 60 it's completely out of the question. If I were to do an axle swap I'd have to completely redo my long arms just because they're so nasty. I don't think a front sub frame would be that difficult. That said, I've talked to bob about this and he's all pumped.
-Nate

chadjans
11-08-2004, 05:19 AM
See my friend's build up for converting an XJ to front leafs and then the rear to air over hydro: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=139642&highlight=chadjans

I have a feeling he will be converting the front back to a linked suspension soon.

Wouldn't it be easier to link the damm thing and just fix your long arms?

Chad

gearhead313
11-08-2004, 12:52 PM
Wouldn't it be easier to link the damm thing and just fix your long arms?

Chad


x2

BigDaveZJ
11-08-2004, 01:52 PM
Is it that hard to abide by Nate's request and NOT try to talk him into sticking with coils?

Nate Cannon
11-08-2004, 04:07 PM
Wouldn't it be easier to link the damm thing and just fix your long arms?

Chad


x2

no.

OverkillZJ
11-08-2004, 06:17 PM
I'm sorry guys, but I see this forum as an "open discussion" in which you give and take.

If you're going to ask for help on a solution, and others don't agree with that solution, you're going to get feedback both positive and negative. If you don't like what others have to post, move on. It's their 2 cents, you don't have to agree with it. Asking others to keep their views to themselves which relate to the discussion at hand isn't ever going to happen on an open discussion fourm.. :idea:

Can't we all just get along? :P

JohnBoulderCO
11-08-2004, 06:21 PM
Can't we all just get along? :P

No, you saw the election results.
But I do agree with you on the give and take of posts.

chadjans
11-09-2004, 12:22 AM
Is it that hard to abide by Nate's request and NOT try to talk him into sticking with coils?

I gave him a post to an XJ solution. :twisted: :evil:

Chad

OverkillZJ
11-09-2004, 12:27 AM
Can't we all just get along? :P

No, you saw the election results.
But I do agree with you on the give and take of posts.

Start another thread in chit chat if you wan't to discuss politics, I'd love to start a war!

My presidents in the white hase for 4 more years, my Steelers just defeated two undefeated teams in a row - life is good! ;)

Nate Cannon
11-09-2004, 01:20 AM
If I have a solution and I'm trying to figure out how the solution works, don't offer me another solution. This forum is open discussion, my post is not, it's on a specific topic, and I requested information. If you have nothing to add then take your opinion and blow it out your ass. Chad gave me assistance, and therefore I am grateful, I just don’t think it’s the direction I want to go. You have posted pointless drivel, which is not worth the bandwidth it takes up.

Example: If you come on and say “I’m getting funky tire wear” and I say, “BFG mud terrain’s suck and 33’s are small” that is pointless and not relevant and not fit for “open discussion.” Especially if you explicitly say “don’t give me shit about my tires.”

I didn’t really care that you posted the original irrelevant response, but when you try and defend it using quite possibly the most ignorant irrational response I’ve ever seen, it really becomes egregious and I find it offensive that you would insult the intelligence of the members of this board by thinking you have any ground to defend the original post as applying to the thread or the forum as a whole.
-Nate

speedmontzj
11-09-2004, 01:28 AM
look up the post on that scary looking grey gc with the pvc rad hose on nagca. i would not copy it but it could give you a starting point.

OverkillZJ
11-09-2004, 02:15 AM
If I have a solution and I'm trying to figure out how the solution works, don't offer me another solution. This forum is open discussion, my post is not, it's on a specific topic, and I requested information. If you have nothing to add then take your opinion and blow it out your ass. Chad gave me assistance, and therefore I am grateful, I just don’t think it’s the direction I want to go. You have posted pointless drivel, which is not worth the bandwidth it takes up.

Example: If you come on and say “I’m getting funky tire wear” and I say, “BFG mud terrain’s suck and 33’s are small” that is pointless and not relevant and not fit for “open discussion.” Especially if you explicitly say “don’t give me shit about my tires.”

I didn’t really care that you posted the original irrelevant response, but when you try and defend it using quite possibly the most ignorant irrational response I’ve ever seen, it really becomes egregious and I find it offensive that you would insult the intelligence of the members of this board by thinking you have any ground to defend the original post as applying to the thread or the forum as a whole.
-Nate

Fair enough. But first just let me say http://www.mallcrawlin.com/ForumPics/biteme.jpg

Second of all, your analogy to the tires? Completely irrelevant. In your example you have problem A and someone if referring to problem B (the tires sucking.) It's a problem pointing at another problem. In your case, people see you have a problem, and are offering solutions you might not particularly like. Zippedy fuckin' dooda. It’s an entirely different scenario.

Third of all, as far as wasting bandwidth goes, considering I'll shortly be allowing Dave to move this site onto my server with unlimited bandwidth and space, it'll quite literally be my bandwidth to waste anyway… So http://www.mallcrawlin.com/ForumPics/fingersmile.jpg

Other than that, as I said in the first place, good luck and I can't wait to see the result.

OverkillZJ
11-09-2004, 02:19 AM
look up the post on that scary looking grey gc with the pvc rad hose on nagca. i would not copy it but it could give you a starting point.

Didn't he just weld 1/4" tabs to the unibody and bolt shackles to it?

I think boxing or sleething the front crossmember, like someone said, would be a much better way (safer) of doing it.

BigDaveZJ
11-09-2004, 04:39 AM
Holy thread hijack!!!

How 'bout we stop arguing about whether or not we can tell someone their idea sucks or not and just give Nate a hand!

slagburn
01-26-2005, 01:04 AM
I registered here just to help with this question, so don't give me too much crap.

A couple years ago I ran an XJ with leaves front and rear, 60/ 14 bolt, 40's. I wouldn't say it sucked, it ran upper proving grounds unassisted.. except for the exit. You know, the trail where you always see pics of buggies doing massive wheelstands or rolled over.

XJ=ZJ in this case. For ease of fabrication, learn from my mistake, make the leaves flat. Then you won't have to rework the cast-in spring pad to get a reasonable pinion angle. First you'll have to decide if you want to go shackle front or rear. I ran shackle front, with a 6" long shackle leaning forward / 45 degrees at ride height. When climbing a vert wall, it would still fold back all the way to the frame and lock there, so I had to build an anti inversion device. It was nothing more than a mechanical stop, but it worked.

If you go shackle rear you will have to cut into the unibody quite a bit and sink the upper shackle mount deep into the uniframe rail for ground clearance/ spring flatness. Shackle rear won't have an inversion problem but it'll be tough to get the spring flat.

As for spring selection. I didn't want to go with YJ springs, wanted some more flex. I mix'n matched YJ/ XJ leafs. Xj main/ XJ main minus eyes/ YJ long/ XJ second longest/ etc, ended up with 7 leaves in the pack. Of course this long of a pack will not bolt up to the LCA mounts, I had to cut those off and add mounts further back.

Keep in mind the factory setup does not put any weight out on the front of the unibody. With leaves you're adding quite a bit of leverage out there. If you plan on this rig having any unibody longevity I would go with some unibody plating or ideally find a way to tie your cage into the front bumper area with some tube triangulation.

As for performance, once again, done right you will love it. Maybe I lucked into the right setup, but this rig just flat worked and easily outdid another project CJ with leaf front and 4 link rear. Ultimate flex, no. Balance, yes.

Expect fun times getting your drag link off the RF spring pack.

I don't see him in this thread but you need to talk to my bud Jon, he's in south Denver doing this exact build, on a ZJ right now.

FinlayZJ
01-26-2005, 09:40 AM
Not sure what POR link was posted above b/c their board is down, but they do have this complex write up:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Leafspring_conversion/leafs.htm

msvance
01-26-2005, 01:06 PM
as mentioned before, a front cross member is crucial. sleeving the unibody "frame rail" would definitely be key for the foundation. i have been building a front bumper so i have recent experience with sleeving the front frame. box tube (can't remember the exact size 4x2 maybe?) works great and is a very tight fit. you can only go back 6 maybe 7" before you hit indentions in the frame. also, you need to "cut the bottom off" the box tube because of a plate that is on the bottom of the rail which is there to bolt things to on the bottom of the "frame rail". i tried to remove that plate, but was having a difficult time so i said f-it. it probably is possible to remove with some effort, which i think would be key so you can keep the full tube.

i would extend each sleeve past the front and tie each side together with another piece of square tube. where you want your axle will decide how far you extend forward the crossmemeber and which springs to use. i think it would be cool to change out the steering box like timzjatl did and have the pitman arm facing forward. this would help with the major and really only drawback in my mind of leaf springs vs. coils up front, which is approach angle. but, if you do this you'll also need to do the other "modifications" he had to do which you may or may not be up for (i am not sure what purpose your zj serves; i.e. dd, etc.)

check on pirate for various spring lengths. also, rancho has a document on their website with leaf spring dimensions from various applications. i use waggys and durango leaf springs on my cj. the flex from both are awesome. durango/dakota leaf springs measure ~22x32 and waggy's ~22x24. durango/dakota leaf springs provide ~2.5-3" of lift over being flat, waggy's are flat, and rancho 44044's are 3" lift springs for waggys. i think all of these would be good choices, but i haven't looked under my zj to see where the best rear mount location is. another good choice would be to build a a spring pack basing it on a toyota main leaf. the reason for this is because 'yota springs have an even shorter front measurement (20.5" i think), but 'yota springs wouldn't really support a zj so you would need to mix and match a spring pack. you can also re-drill the centering hole in any of these packs, however, you have to see how it all is going to affect castor/pinion angle, etc. that is the only real challenge in my mind, but again, i haven't looked so it may not be an issue. also, you may want to look and see if shackle front or doing a SR is better for these angles and make that the decision on which way to go. i personally prefer SR but either should work fine, and i would base it on which mounts the easiest.

other stuff: i doubt you will need any traction bar up front like mentioned above, don't use a "revolver" style shackle like shown above, anti-inversion shackle is a good idea, and have fun! can't wait to see the results.

later.

UGLEZJ
02-04-2005, 04:41 PM
I don't see him in this thread but you need to talk to my bud Jon, he's in south Denver doing this exact build, on a ZJ right now.

Yah, I'm at Lincoln and I-25

I've been getting ideas off this board for sometime, but thought it is best to register. SO.. HEY!

If anyone is down in the area and wants to check stuff out or bend some tube up, I've got the stuff. Right now, I've got an ongoing project involving the leafs. I think that the project is going very well. D44HP/D60, w/37's. I know that leafs may seem to some going back in time, but really, how many have seen leafs REALLY SUCK? I just used an XJ/YJ leaf combo pack using a YJ main for an 8 leaf pack. It is really nice and I know it will do well. As for the rear,,,about the same and an XJ main. I'm building some bumpers to use as crossmembers, but using a bumper mount that goes past the Steering Pump mount on the unibody. ZJ's have a much beefier front end unibody built in, due to the V8 that an XJ never had. This is what sparked my interests.

When I was going to HighSchool in Moab,UT the biggest/hottest susp for that area was the leafs. They are strong, and willing to standup when they require. Not to put the links down, but building that on my own would require thousands of dollars just for the links and DOM. Leafs are a simple solution that will work on and off road, with stability.

I'll try to post some pics in the next couple of days.

UGLEZJ
02-20-2005, 07:13 PM
Here's updated pics of the leaf setup, just reference here:

http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=27168

Jcbzj
03-15-2005, 11:07 PM
Thought I would bring this thread back instead of starting a new one. Im doing radius arms in the front and leafs in the rear of my ZJ.

What are your suggestions for a rear shackle mount? I was thinking about doing a rear bumper mount, but that loses me a lot of clearance. I could sleeve the unibody but there isnt too much room for any kind of crossmember..so what do you think?

UGLEZJ
03-16-2005, 06:11 AM
I was able to fit a 1/4" 2x3 into the rear UB rail where the stock bumper brackets fit into. The drivers side is about 13 inches or so and the pass. side is about 18. I used a 1/4" 3x6 in between the two 2x3's where the 6"s of the 3x6 went horizontally and welded them together. I drilled a hole through the 2x3's about 3" away from the back of the UB for the shackle. I then bolted the UB to two brackets on each side of the UB rail and sandwiched the UB rail together with two other G8 bolts.
THIS is great for clearance reasons!!

I think this is sufficient for a crossmember to support the rear of the Leaf mounts. I used a combination of XJ leafs and YJ leafs with a skyjacker 3" full-length AAL and a 2" Short AAL. The springs ride great!

This weekend I will start building the exo and i will have a nice tie in for the back, because of my Fuel Tank/Shock mount to go between the two 2x3's in the UB rail. I won't have any problems with the rear support, especially when I cut the bed off.