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View Full Version : Long Arms on the Front only of a WJ?



Mtn WJ
10-26-2004, 02:50 PM
Before any of you quickly dismiss this idea please think about it first.

I have thought about this for awhile and recently saw an XJ long arm set up that would adapt to a WJ. I like it because of the increased clearance. It may even work better on a WJ becuase Dubs are much stiffer than an XJ.

As we all know XJ's are typically front only LA's because of the leafs in the rear.

My thoughts are as follows:

LA's in the front will enable more travel with a better ride on the street when running 6 inches or higher lift.

The driveability is due to the fact the the control arms are more parallel to the road and will move up and down more when absorbing the bumps versus a more perpendicular mount with short arms at 6 inches. The short arm will go up and down however much of the jolt will go to the frame rails. The upper arms will only allow so much travel on short arms versus long arms with the upper arms on the same joint.


The tri-link derived rear of a WJ can be lifted to 6 inches with out affecting driveability too much. The lower arms will simply travel up and down and not jolt against the frame rails. Unless you drive in reverse a lot. The A-Arm will roll side to side as designed. I know LA's will likely give more flex than the A-Arm but the difference will not be as great as SA's.

I know of two cases where LA's in the rear of a WJ have failed. One case the bracket that replaces the A ARM have twisted and the bolts have pulled through them.

The other case the arms have twisted and the threads came out of the tubes.

These issues are based on using the stock rear axle and adapting to the A Arm mounts on the top. The issues will likely be gone if one used a different axle and set them up like on a ZJ.


I am considering doing this. My thoughts are first just put in 6 inch springs on the short arms and watch what the rear does after a few trips. Then I can decide to do the front only or a full LA set up in the rear as well.

My overall concept with my WJ is an adventure vehicle. I want to drive my kids to the trail, camp, fish - whatever and drive it back home. I want to improve some of its trail capability with 6 inches of lift versus the 4 or so I have now. I am not intersted in building a rig that I can not drive on long hauls comfortably and reliably. I do want to continue running trails like I have but with some increased clearance.


What are some of your thoughts? See the link with some preliminary info on the XJ LA set up. Any feed back would be appreciated.

Keith S

http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=18863

gearhead313
10-26-2004, 03:01 PM
6" on a wj with rear short arms probalby wont even clear 32's b/c the arms will be pointing straight down. i'd say just scrap the idea and LA the whole thing.

also, if your worried about clearance, work on getting a 35" tire under there first and determine how high you want it to be on that 35" tire. I know a friend of mine who has a 4" teraflex lift on 32's and it sits really nice...lock it up and it will take you places for sure.

OverkillZJ
10-26-2004, 03:11 PM
6" on a wj with rear short arms probalby wont even clear 32's b/c the arms will be pointing straight down. i'd say just scrap the idea and LA the whole thing.

also, if your worried about clearance, work on getting a 35" tire under there first and determine how high you want it to be on that 35" tire. I know a friend of mine who has a 4" teraflex lift on 32's and it sits really nice...lock it up and it will take you places for sure.

34's has been done at 4" of lift, and it worked out VERY well (DaveRS575).

I wouldn't suggest 6" on short arms either, but I wouldn't say they'd exactly be pointing straight down either...

But LA the whole thing? YES

Mtn WJ
10-26-2004, 03:43 PM
Some good points


I am at 4 inches with 32's and an ARB and yes it can go most places I want to. My issue typically is break over angle and hitting the crossmember.

I have seen a couple WJ's clear 32's on SA's without a problem if they had adjustable arms and a decent drive shaft to elim the vibes.

I am not saying I do not want to go to a Full LA. I am considering some other options first. Again most of the LA advantages are for the front of a WJ and less on the rear in my opinion.

35's are out of the question for the rig I want to use and drive.

Keep em coming. Perhaps someone who has run 6 inches on short arms on their WJ for awhile can comment on the their experiences in the rear.

Mtn WJ
10-26-2004, 03:49 PM
It might be helpful to describe my current suspension set up.

4 inch lift
RE-adjustable Arms
Rear ARB soon to put one in front
4.0 engine with 4.10 gears
242 no SYE yet or DCU rear drive shaft
Front DCU drive shaft
Orgs adjustable track bar
Bilsteins all around
32 inch Truxus MT's on stock rims with 1.5 inch spacers to net 4.5 BS

ALWJ
10-26-2004, 04:36 PM
Project WJ on JU is running just front LA's after running 6"SA lift for a while. I don't see how the arms could twist out of the threads... it's physically impossible unless you unbolt the arm or rip of a mount. If he only had one or two threads engaged and it stripped out then it's a different story... mechanic error not mechanical error. I had to lengthen my rear LCA's by sleeving them (because there wasn't enough threads) to get the position I wanted with mine, but I'm running 37's. I had no problems @6" with my LA's and stock axels... it worked great and took me through rubicon and fordyce. Just go with Clayton's full kit and run it at 4" for a while... see how much you'll have to trim for 33's and then jump up to 6" and 33 when/if you decide to. (I ran mine at 4" for a while with no problems even though they recommend 6" of lift.)

OverkillZJ
10-26-2004, 05:09 PM
if 35's are out of the question, why in the world do you want to be at 6"?

Mtn WJ
10-26-2004, 05:55 PM
OverkillZJ

Perhaps you are not reading my posts completely. Please do not mis-interpret my next comment but your screen name is overkillzj and 35's for me is overkill. Perhaps not for you.

Many people with a grand run 6 inches with 32's or 33's. To run 33's with 6 inches I will need to do a bit of trimming and 35's will be more than I care to do to my Jeep with 6 inches. The extra 2 inches will provide the clearance I am looking for. I re-geared my WJ to work with 32-33 inch tires and my 4.0 engine. I have 4.10's. I am pleased with the performance on the road and axle clearance off road. Just not pleased with the amount of times I dent in my tcase skid on trails like Cliffhanger and some of the Colorado Trails.

So back to the guy with the LA's in the front only on JU. What are his comments or experiences? Anyone know him? A lot of stuff I read on JU is un-reliable. Many times the builder is making it up or does not really take his rig on real trails with real obstacles.

Thanks for you comments thus far.

Mtn WJ
10-26-2004, 06:03 PM
Oh yea back to the LA's that broke. I will not say the manufacturer because it could have been owner error. However they were replaced under warranty with modified versions from the manufacturer that did not break on the same rig.

I am not saying that LA's in the rear is not an option or overall unreliable. I am just asking about the idea of not running LA's in the rear because they are not as benificial as in the front.

The end result with this thread may be go to LA's all around but it may not be.

My thought with running 6 inches on short arms is to see for myself what happens in the rear. This will not happen until next February and I am doing some research now incase some parts come up used that are a good buy.

Jeepin' Wolf
10-26-2004, 06:50 PM
If your considerations for doing front only are financial, then sure, some is better than none. Otherwise, it is doing the job half-ass.

I ran 6" w/33's (no trimming is necessary) and while I really had few issues being on short arms initially, the bushings do take a helluva beating and wear out quick. Once they do and, we're talking months here, the change in overall ride quality is very, very dramatic. Natuarally rear will be less prone to failure than the front so if any one part is to be done, front is the ticket but it may still not be all nice. Your WJ will not flex any more with the long arms. Hell I could basically fold my axles underneath the Jeep. But it will flex much easier especially in the front. What you might notice with the SA's in the rear is the toque steer. If you go that route, put an Addco back there to minimize the effect on the street. Could be less of an issue with the I6 but still probably would exist. The "jolt" in the rear may be less dramatic than that in the front but much like the front axle being "pushed in" when it hits a bump, the rear will be "pushed out". As a result the rear end has a tendency to bounce, and when it bounces unevenly the rear axle actually turns (3-link), so now it also swings. This causes your passengers to exhibit a WTF effect. Soon, you exhibit the same symptoms as well. Severity of that effect will obvioulsy depend on the quality of the pavement and the speed of travel as well as your tollerance for "good" ride.

If you want your WJ to be an adventure vehicle all the more reason to put LA's front and back. Honestly, the shit that I could do in my WJ with SA's was pretty much on the same scale as it was on LA's. Now the ride to and from the trail, as well as durability of the suspension, whoa, now that's quite noticeabl, and positive difference.

I drove on SA's thru 2", 4" and 6" doing a lot of highway driving in between or to the trails. At the end of that run, I was ready to beat the crap out of my rig - and I am very understanding when it comes to my WJ's less than marginal diving manners.

Do yourself and your passengers a favor, put the entire LA suspension on. Even if you have to wait a month or two to collect more funds cause it is damn worth it.

:arrow: JMO of course.

Mtn WJ
10-26-2004, 06:58 PM
Thanks Adam

This is the feed back I was looking for to make my decision.

Keith

Jeepin' Wolf
10-26-2004, 07:14 PM
Oh yea, re those "unscrewing arms". If this is the same instance as I'm pretty sure it is ( Clayton Hard-Arm WJ Suspension ), the thing didn't just unscrew itself. The tread was gone, I mean there was none left as if somebody filed it off completely. We were all scratching our heads looking at it and the only explanation we could come up with was that with winter salt on the streets and lock nuts maybe not as tight as they should be the salt and rust just ate the fawkers over time. It's amystery. Far fetched but the only thing that could possibly come to mind. Abuse, install error? Maybe. The arms were replaced free off charge under lifetime warranty with no questions asked. On a similar note, when long time ago I was bold enough to complain to Teraflex about their arms they told me to stick it where the sun don't shine.

Mtn WJ
10-26-2004, 07:36 PM
Adam

Sounds like the same instance. Todd has a good attitude about it so I am not trying to create a bad impression of Claytons.

By the way I have heard others say the same about tera arms and that is why I went to RE's.

For what it is worth Todd is bringing his rig back to stock to sell it. (College budget problems) I am considering buying his LA' set up. Does anyone know if the Claytons warranty is transferable. I will also need to replace the rear lower arms because the repalcement arms are built for 8 inches not 6.

OverkillZJ
10-26-2004, 10:56 PM
OverkillZJ

Perhaps you are not reading my posts completely. Please do not mis-interpret my next comment but your screen name is overkillzj and 35's for me is overkill. Perhaps not for you.

Many people with a grand run 6 inches with 32's or 33's. To run 33's with 6 inches I will need to do a bit of trimming and 35's will be more than I care to do to my Jeep with 6 inches. The extra 2 inches will provide the clearance I am looking for. I re-geared my WJ to work with 32-33 inch tires and my 4.0 engine. I have 4.10's. I am pleased with the performance on the road and axle clearance off road. Just not pleased with the amount of times I dent in my tcase skid on trails like Cliffhanger and some of the Colorado Trails.

So back to the guy with the LA's in the front only on JU. What are his comments or experiences? Anyone know him? A lot of stuff I read on JU is un-reliable. Many times the builder is making it up or does not really take his rig on real trails with real obstacles.

Thanks for you comments thus far.


EDIT: I'm trying to say that 6" for 32's is, in itself, overkill
Trimming to fit 33's at 6"?

I'm not trying to be unhelpful, but are you nuts?

Anyway, Dave sold his Jeep, but he's often still on AOL with the screen name of "Dave RS575". He ran 34" super swampers on a tera 4" lift. He did trim a little bit of course.

Point is, bigger tire, lower COG = better.

If your tcase skid is that much of a problem, have you considered building a better one of figuring out how to raise it up? I got hung up on my skid on cliffhanger at one point, but I took a REALLY bad line.

Don't get me wrong, if you're that insistent on 6" of lift to fit 32" tires, then by all means do it. It's your Jeep. But I don't think it's the wisest road to go down. I'm running at about 5-5.5" on 35's and only trimmed an inch of fender (seriously).

I find many people who jump right to 6" end up backing it down lower unless they really need to be up there.


Buuuuuuuut... if You're going to do it, do it right. LA's front and rear, as Adam put it, don't half ass it.

BigDaveZJ
10-27-2004, 12:20 AM
Keith,
I still got a bunch of sawzall blades and cutoff wheels leftover from the roof project! Bring it over and we'll hack it up!

Kraqa
10-27-2004, 12:39 AM
i did LA for the front of mine a long time ago and i regretted doing just half the job. ended up taken em out and starting freash. it wouldn't have costed alot more to do the whole thing the first time.

and just in case overkill didn't point it out enoguh 6" with 32's is ghey. i ran 32 on a 2" lift and if i trimmed i could have easily fit 33's with offset rims. i'm at 5.5 now with 38's.

Mtn WJ
10-27-2004, 12:39 AM
Gee Dave maybe I should take you up on that. Perhaps we should get one last blast out of Corey's Plasma Cutter before he sells it. I still need to drop by and see your ZJ in person.

I am just exploring options for a reliable 6 inch set up. 32's or 33's will be fine for me at 6 inches. It seems the best set up would be LA's F and R that is true. Sometimes others have ideas that may surprise us and sometimes maybe not.

Everytime I do a project on my WJ I do some research like this to again explore my options.

JohnBoulderCO
10-27-2004, 02:20 AM
Keith,
Do both the front and rear. Makes both ends travel straighter up and down and not as much in an arc. That is where the problems of rubbing come in. I rubbed a little with 32's at 4", a lot of rubbing at 4" with 33's, a little on 33's at 6" with SA's. No rubbing at all with LA's at 6" with 33's.

The clearance was great, but the ride was awful. At first I thought, hmmm, this isn't too bad, then after a few weeks, I thought, this is bad. Then I dreaded seeing pot holes on the road, then I hated the thought of rocks on the trail.....you get the idea.

With the LA's the WJ's ride is smooooooooth again on and off road. I really noticed how much smoother it was off road. I could never figure out how Halfdoc (David) could blast up and down the trails in Moab and I was going slow. LA's make the difference, smoooooth sailing.

I also thought about just LA's in the front. I was going to change the mount location on the axle, but the unibody mount would remain the same. That didn't change the angle much, so then I thought about making some custom front arms, but when you start getting into it, buying a proven design makes the most sense.

If you are thinking of jumping to 33's, I will sell you my 33's. That way you can go bigger and I will have a reason to buy some 35's. Might as well, since you bought my 32's. :D

John

gearhead313
10-27-2004, 02:00 PM
Point is, bigger tire, lower COG = better.

.


x2 ...my point still. Get the biggest tire you want to run then make the suspension fit it.

if you arn't worried about suspension articulation as much as your worried about clearance, then why not try adjusting the arms way out and fitting 33's or 34 LTB's or a short 35 (MTR's ...hehehe) and going 1" tera boost on what you got now....

Cody
10-27-2004, 05:02 PM
x2 ...my point still. Get the biggest tire you want to run then make the suspension fit it.



Dude, you have 9.5" of lift. Thats excessive even for the 40's you want to run.

On a WJ, 4.5-6" is probably about right for 33's without killing your fenders too much. With some good clean trimming, 37's can fit on ZJ's with that amount of lift, I imagine 35's on a WJ would be no problem.

Cody

ALWJ
10-28-2004, 04:00 PM
On a WJ, 4.5-6" is probably about right for 33's without killing your fenders too much. With some good clean trimming, 37's can fit on ZJ's with that amount of lift, I imagine 35's on a WJ would be no problem.

Cody

Hahaha... tell that to my rear fenders :lol: I think the WJ's wheel wells are a bit smaller than ZJ's... especially in the rear. I've tried fitting my 37's at 6" of lift in the rear and I've cut all the way to the door and followed that line all the way around and they still rub up top and in back.

Cody
10-28-2004, 05:01 PM
Thats why I said 35's with that amount of lift and not 37's.

JohnBoulderCO
10-28-2004, 06:03 PM
Bump Stops?

OverkillZJ
10-28-2004, 09:45 PM
Bump Stops?

overated ;)

Actually, my rear bump stops are my 4-link upper arms hitting the floorboard

gearhead313
10-29-2004, 11:05 AM
i know i am a lil retarted and need a special helmet when i go to walmart, but we'll have to ignore that for now.


35's should be a good goal, but......definitly bumpstops...definly