8.8 Install in a ZJ

[Diman]

Well, here's my contribution.
I swapped an 8.8 under my ZJ during my build.
Just when I decided it'd be an 8.8 that I want IRO presented their bracket kit.
I know it's much more cool to make all the brackets yourself, and I do have both material and skills, but I decided to save me some time, mostly because I was in the middle of a bigger build.

Here's my conversion:

Bracket kit from IRO
http://www.diman.se/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/P1000547_922x692.jpg

Axle, sand blasted, primed and stripped of all old brackets.
It's a Ford 8.8 from a 97' Explorer with rear disc brakes.

http://www.diman.se/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/P1000197_922x692.jpg

I've welded tubes to the housing using preheating, 7018 low hydrogen rod and slow cooling under fiberglass blanket.

Then I've welded all the brackets. Most important thing here is to set that pinion angle to accomodate your current( or planned) lift so the spring wont look like banans afterwads.
I've set mine to 10 degrees.
http://www.diman.se/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/P1000553_922x692.jpg

and measure all angles more than one time :-)
http://www.diman.se/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/P1000555_922x692.jpg



All done and ready for paint

http://www.diman.se/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/P1000588_922x692.jpg

It's a really nice upgrade no more worries about broken driveshafts :-)

[dyn0mitemat]

I'm guess this is a new part because it hasn't been mentioned before

http://eastcoastgearsupply.com/i-5767542-ford-8-8-forged-1310-u-bolt-yoke.html

Should go right on without having to use an adapter flange or conversion u joints correct?
A little pricey but I think I may spring for one, doing all this work on mine right now I'd rather just do it right while I've got everything apart and when I put it in I can forget about it

I bought g2 gears (4.56's, will be running 35's here shortly) and install kit today. I assume the above flange is 30 spline (pinion), it doesn't mention it anywhere.

I plan on pushing the axle back 1-1.5" to accommodate the 35's, is anyone having any clearance issues with this axle being pushed back and the stock tank skid?

And I'm being a cheap ass with this (cutting all my brackets out tomorrow, 1/4" and a bunch of oxy/acy to be used :D ), the 88 I pulled has 4.10's LSD. I don't plan on putting a locker or anything in right now due to funds and it'll probably be awhile until I do. Is it worth messing with adding extra clutches in it to help tighten it up? This is my DD so I can't have it locked up like a spool, but I wouldn't mind tightening it up some if it's cheap and not insanely hard

[TN_WJ]

Recently did the swap on my WJ, I know it's the zj thread but I thought I'd post it in case someone with a wj searches and ends up here. A sorry if the pics are giant.

Junkyard-sourced from 2001 Explorer was chosen to replace my bent d44a.
High-clearance brackets and 4 link truss from Clayton off road
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h434/braabe1/88%20build/1d03f3fc.jpg
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h434/braabe1/88%20build/0a6e4d39.jpg
Had to relocate the muffler a little to clear the driveshaft(pic is before it was moved forward)
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h434/braabe1/88%20build/e404554b.jpg
Width with 2" spacers
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h434/braabe1/88%20build/60a22c2b.jpg
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h434/braabe1/88%20build/2d771c89.jpg
The bracket kit moved the axle back ~1.5", even with the links as short as the can get it's pretty tight with the gas tank in stock location. Really happy with the results though
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h434/braabe1/88%20build/f2625581.jpg

[dyn0mitemat]

Which wheel studs were you guys running to run the spacers? Summit only lists one set of studs (thats I can find) and they're stock length

[dp96zj]

Stock studs. I'm running 1.25" spacers, and cut off the unthreaded portion of each stock studs, which was probably about 1/3". Cutting off the unthreaded tip allowed me to run the spacers with no clearancing issues.

Thread a nut on the stud first, just in case the threads get gummed up from the grinder.

[dyn0mitemat]

I need the studs to go through the spacers and out of the wheels to put the lug nuts on. I hear everyone talking about getting arp studs but don't see any other than stock length on their site

I'm assuming you're talking about spacers that have their own studs pressed in, I'm making a set of spacers that just go in between the wheel and rotor

[cowboy63b]

DON'T do it that way, with longer studs and non bolt on spacer your asking for trouble, just do it right the first time and run bolt on spacers with pressed in studs in the spacers, ask me how I know.

[BigDaveZJ]

Don't do it that way, with longer studs and non bolt on spacer your asking for trouble, just so it right the first time and run bolt on spacers with pressed in studs in the spacers, ask me how I know.

This.

[94GCbombhunter]

Is finding a free.99 8.8 with drums going to be to costly to convert to disc's?

Or is it going to be possible to engineer the 44HD disc set up to the 8.8?

[Steel City ZJ]

I don't believe so but if you're that worried about it sell it and run down to pick and pull and get one with disk brakes. They are only like $100 bucks or so there.

[dyn0mitemat]

DON'T do it that way, with longer studs and non bolt on spacer your asking for trouble, just do it right the first time and run bolt on spacers with pressed in studs in the spacers, ask me how I know.
I tried looking around but couldn't find anything, I keep hearing this, but haven't heard anyone explain why its better to run something like spidertrax spacers opposed to what I'm talking about doing. I can't see there being any more stress on the studs one way or another, and to me, it seems like there's just twice as many parts to strip out or break on the spidertrax type.

I'm not saying your wrong on this, as like I said, I keep hearing this. I'd just like to know why people are saying this

Thanks for the help so far guys!

[cowboy63b]

look at it this way, say you did do it that way, your rotational forces and lateral forces on the studs, they will break, no question, take one of your studs and put it in a vise, then take your standard 32oz ball peen, and attack it, same concept only with a tire and more leverage on the jeep, ALOT more leverage.

just to drive home the concept......

i ASSume a 5.2 v8 correct? if so...... 44re/rh trans has a 2.74 1st ratio, then 2.72 in the transfer case, then (by what your sig line says) 3.73 at final, so do the math

2.74x2.72x3.73=27.79 crawl ratio, add in a 31" tire and rocks/rutted up trails/whatever you wheel on and engine torque.....(5.2's put out 300lb-ft factory, and multiply by your crawl ratio = roughly 8300lb-ft at the wheels)

i bet you can guess what happens to a bolt when its put under stresses that it was never designed for


with bolt on spacers it keeps the bolts in a shear like they were designed for, not a twisting force.


so for the long post but im sure everything is correct, if not someone else will chime in.

[dyn0mitemat]

I see where your coming from, makes a bit more sense.

I just have it in the back of my mind for some reason that it's still the same amount of pressure on the studs whether they bolt onto spacers with their own studs or go through though.

Idn, I'm looking for a set of spidertrax right now, I hate to spend the cash on them when I can make something at home, but it is what it is.


look at it this way, say you did do it that way, your rotational forces and lateral forces on the studs, they will break, no question, take one of your studs and put it in a vise, then take your standard 32oz ball peen, and attack it, same concept only with a tire and more leverage on the jeep, ALOT more leverage.

just to drive home the concept......

i ASSume a 5.2 v8 correct? if so...... 44re/rh trans has a 2.74 1st ratio, then 2.72 in the transfer case, then (by what your sig line says) 3.73 at final, so do the math

2.74x2.72x3.73=27.79 crawl ratio, add in a 31" tire and rocks/rutted up trails/whatever you wheel on and engine torque.....(5.2's put out 300lb-ft factory, and multiply by your crawl ratio = roughly 8300lb-ft at the wheels)

i bet you can guess what happens to a bolt when its put under stresses that it was never designed for


with bolt on spacers it keeps the bolts in a shear like they were designed for, not a twisting force.


so for the long post but im sure everything is correct, if not someone else will chime in.




edit:

Alright I give in, TBH I don't think there'd be a problem, but knowing my luck something WILL happen, and I have been warned about it, so....

I'm checking out spacers, these ones on ebay say they're cnc'd (not cast) 6061-t6, they're hubcentric, the size's I need, and a good price.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-pcs-1-5x4-5-Hub-Centric-Wheel-Spacers-Adapters-70-5mm-1-2-Studs-/260967455321?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3cc2df5a59&vxp=mtr#ht_1406wt_1327

Any reason not to grab these?

[cowboy63b]

the rotation vs. shear was the best way i could put it,

tis why teh tire monkeys at walmart broke off several studs on my junk, with an impact.

[dyn0mitemat]

Thats why me and a few select friends/family members are the only people I'll let touch my ride. I can't stand idiots putting things together with impacts

Those ebay spacers look alright to you?

[cowboy63b]

cheap parts are like cheap tattoos, you get what you pay for, sometimes good, but most times, blah, im prolly gonna buy spidertrax spacers, so i can be done with my 8.8.

[ajmorell]

with bolt on spacers it keeps the bolts in a shear like they were designed for, not a twisting force.

I agree that bolt on spacers are probably better, but that statement makes no sense. A bolt that fails by twisting is a shear failure....

[SirFuego]

I am very confused...

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't wheel studs supposed to be mounted in tension? Meaning that friction keeps everything in place? So any shear failure, in theory, should be due to an insufficient clamping force? If so, the design of the spacer shouldn't matter, should it? As long as there is enough tension to create enough friction to keep anything from moving -- it'd be a happy camper.

So if that's the theory, does that actually translate to real life? Or are there other factors that come into play that make one design better than the other?

Or do wheel studs actually see an appreciable shear force even when mounted properly?

[ajmorell]

I am very confused...

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't wheel studs supposed to be mounted in tension? Meaning that friction keeps everything in place? So any shear failure, in theory, should be due to an insufficient clamping force? If so, the design of the spacer shouldn't matter, should it? As long as there is enough tension to create enough friction to keep anything from moving -- it'd be a happy camper.

So if that's the theory, does that actually translate to real life? Or are there other factors that come into play that make one design better than the other?

Or do wheel studs actually see an appreciable shear force even when mounted properly?

That's a good question, not something I really ever gave too much though. I would be inclined to believe you are right based on the design of lug nuts and how they seat against the wheel (the convex part of the nut seats against the concave part of the wheel), I think the intention is that the wheel shouldn't actually touch the stud correct? Even so, I would think that with longer lugs you would be increasing the bending moment on the lugs compared to a bolt in spacer. The force @ the end of the shaft would be the same either way though I think.

[cowboy63b]

I agree that bolt on spacers are probably better, but that statement makes no sense. A bolt that fails by twisting is a shear failure....


maybe im a tad confused in my statement then.

[dyn0mitemat]

Well let me ask this then, I'm putting the 8.8 under mine at about 5" lift on LA's. I bought 35/12.5/15 mtr's and am going to mount them on 15" wheels ~3.5" backspacing. Do I need spacers to help fit these tires, or will there be enough room? I assumed going with wider tires and narrower axle that I'd need them, but I may not

[Steel City ZJ]

No. I'm at roughly 5.5" on Clayton rear L/A's and 35 MTR's on an 8.8 and I'm fine.

[dyn0mitemat]

What backspacing are your rims?

[Steel City ZJ]

3.5 basically same set up except for the long arms

[dyn0mitemat]

Well it pretty much is because I ended up copying the claytons arms anyway.

Thanks for the info, saves me some cash

[Sudz]

I need the studs to go through the spacers and out of the wheels to put the lug nuts on. I hear everyone talking about getting arp studs but don't see any other than stock length on their site

I'm assuming you're talking about spacers that have their own studs pressed in, I'm making a set of spacers that just go in between the wheel and rotor

ARP 100-7703

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ARP-100-7703/

mine, 5/8" thick spacer per side, installed 6 years ago - zero issues

http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae93/ZJSudz/Junk%20Drawer/100_6903.jpg

http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae93/ZJSudz/Junk%20Drawer/100_6904.jpg

[dyn0mitemat]

^Thanks!

I noticed with 35/12.5/15 new mtr/k's, on 3.5" bs wheels that on tighter turns they rub the coils just slightly, so I'm probably going to put like 1/2" spacers on.

Thanks for the link to the studs

[Brad S]

I finally picked up an 8.8 this week and have been reading over this thread a number of times but had a few questions.

From what I gather, the ZJ rotors, calipers, and pads can all be moved over to the 8.8; however, the ZJ rotors are not compatible with the explorer calipers and vice-versa. I need new rotors either way, but am I better off using the ZJ calipers and buying ZJ rotors, or (if the 8.8 calipers are in good shape) using the 8.8 calipers and buying explorer rotors?

I take it the explorer parking brake setup works with either rotors?

I hope I didn't miss this info somewhere - any insight would be appreciated.

[AprilzWarrior]

Cables work with both makes

[dyn0mitemat]

I stuck with all zj brakes and don't have any complaints

[lateralus3]

I used the 8.8 brakes since my 35 had drums

[Brad S]

Cool, thanks for the responses. I may go with ZJ brakes because they appear to be a little cheaper.

[egg]

I'm currently putting all new parking brakes on my 8.8 that has my old zj's 35. Everything seems to be getting along. You can get performance brake stuff to help the little caliper/rotor combo stop a good deal better IMHO.

[egg]

finished the e-brake install, figured I'd take some pics when doing the passenger side for anyone else who might need 'em

Safety note: wear safety glasses!! you will be playing around with springs that have a lot of stored energy once installed that could easily make you a better pirate!!!

heres what I started with, had to get the parking brake expander/lever thing from a salvage yard cause my 8.8 didn't even have that!
http://imageshack.us/a/img839/8706/photomar18135751.jpg

slide the lever in through the boot carefully
http://imageshack.us/a/img545/7393/photomar18140023.jpg

this is my stock parking brake cable fitting perfectly with the stock 8.8 brake stuff
http://imageshack.us/a/img526/9086/photomar18140114.jpg


general layout of how everything goes together sans the lever
http://imageshack.us/a/img853/7919/photomar18140409.jpg

I started by putting one of the big yellow springs on the back side of the shoes and then put them on, helps to keep the shoes pressed against the backing plate until you put the retaining pins in
http://imageshack.us/a/img443/4606/photomar18141031.jpg

now you put the adjustor in, make sure you'll be able to access it from the access hole in the backing plate for when you need to adjust your parking brakes
http://imageshack.us/a/img849/984/photomar18141122.jpg


now its time for the retainers, these can be a real pain! It helped me to use a c-clamp to clamp the shoe to the backing plate and then use needle nose vice grips to compress the retaining spring while I used needle nose pliers to pull the pin through the retaining spring ( I made these terms up, dont know that theyre really called lol)
http://imageshack.us/a/img542/4765/photomar18141716.jpg

now you can put the other big yellow spring on, again the needle nose vice grips help a ton!
http://imageshack.us/a/img19/7804/photomar18142128.jpg




and last step, you place the short spring underneath the adjuster
http://imageshack.us/a/img585/3826/photomar18142218.jpg

Here's why I strongly recommend taking the axle shafts out to do this job: no room! and honestly, couldn't your 8.8 use some new lube love?
http://imageshack.us/a/img542/2507/photomar18142838.jpg


if you see anything I missed and should please don't hesitate to let me know.

[Brad S]

So am I the only n00b with a stock muffler doing this swap? I swapped in the 8.8 this weekend and the driveshaft contacts the muffler. Time to relocate or replace I guess.

[lateralus3]

My exhaust stops before the rear axle

[pitbull78133]

I did the swap with no exhaust problems, but it could be setup specific. I have a 93/4.0/249/Aw4 setup