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rstrucks
09-01-2010, 10:44 AM
Steering - upgraded stock type, hydraulic assist or full hydro, lets discuss. Be sure to reference what type of steering you are talking about. What works well, what has failed you, when to upgrade, what are some low buck alternatives, rod ends vs. tie rods, etc... Pics help too!

SirFuego
09-01-2010, 11:01 AM
The major thing is that anytime you change your steering geometry, you MUST make sure that the drag link and track bar are parellel, or else it will result in bumpsteer.

The reason is as follows: think of the track bar as locating the horizonal position of the axle and the drag link as locating the horizontal position of the tie rod. Since the track bar has mounting points that do not move, the axle moves slightly to the passenger side when you hit a bump (think of the trackbar as a radius of a circle). If the drag link is NOT parallel, the drag link will not move the same horizontal distance, so that creates a force that moves the tie rod and/or pitman arm, which creates the bumpsteer. If the drag link is parallel, it moves the same distance as the track bar, so there is no bumpsteer.

This is the same reason a track bar is needed anytime you use a drag link/steering box for steering. Even if you have enough triangulation in your links to overcome the steering forces, the axle will move straight up and down -- but the draglink can't.

This is also the same reason, you can get away with no trackbar in a full hydro setup, provided that you have enough triangulation in your links to overcome the steering forces. In this case, it doesn't matter how the axle bumps/droops because all of the steering geometry moves with the axle regardless.

I'll post up more info on my steering setup later. I'll also recommend that people post up links to various options for steering (such as braces and heavy duty tie rods) to make this a "one stop shop" for steering options in a ZJ/WJ.

SB406
09-01-2010, 11:27 AM
Here's my experience as executed on a leaf sprung front end (K5 Chasssis), but most of it applies to all vehicles. There's a lot of details to iron out in any setup. If you have any questions about any of these setups, let me know.

1st-
Inverted T steering using factory 1 ton parts. Stock P-Pump with "West Texas mods"- Worked fine on 35" boggers on a D60. Upgraded to 38's. Still worked pretty well.
However, if you're going to mod the pump, I'd recommend doing it to a new pump. If you mod a used pump, they seem to crap out fast.
Also, without assist, you put a ton of stress on the steering box and the frame around the steering box. My frame needed to be braced.
Ruinning this setup, you NEED steering stops on the knuckles that engage before the stops inside the box. Otherwise you will break the box or rip it off the frame when the tire is being pushed by a rock. First hand experience here.
Cost- $50 for 2WD steering box (It's a Chevy thing. You wouldn't understand.;))

2nd-
Hydro Assist. Tapped my own box. "West Texas mods" P-pump. 2x8 single ended. tractor ram. Same inverted T components as above with brackets added for the ram. Added a cooler also. Awesome setup. One of the best things I ever did to my truck.
Took a ton of stress off the steering box. Made my truck so you didn't have to roll the tires to steer. This allows you to put the truck on the line you want alot easier.
The ram was limited internally to 6.25", so it wouldn't try to rip the knuckles off.
The biggest challenge was fitting the ram under the front of my truck. I have very little lift (~4" over stock) and leaf springs in the way.
The only downfall with this setup is the speed. The 2" ram was a bit large and made the steering just a tick too slow. In the rocks it kicked ass, but on WOT hill climbs, I'd sometimes ping pong off trees. The stock box could just not flow enough to steer that big ram fast, no matter what I did to the pump.
Advantage is that if something fails, you can still easilly drive out of the woods.
Cost to upgrade- $150


3rd (in Progress)
Full hydro. Same 2x8 Single ended tractor ram as above, mounted in same position. Removed the drag link and steering box. Added a 5.9 Cu in orbital. Stock pump with no mods (so far). Initial tests seem excellent. Steering is very fast and responsive.
Initial test drive confirmed that the pump could not perform at low RPM. This was a case of poor parts store quality. The pump was on for 1 run and was feeling sluggish by the end of the weekend. Changed pump, and it seems much better in the shop. Next test drive will be 4WD in a couple of days. I may need to bump up the relief pressure a touch.
Will report back with results.
Cost to upgrade- $225

ATL ZJ
09-01-2010, 11:59 AM
A few things I've learned:

-Get the stress off the stock ZJ framerails with hydro assist and/or distribute it better with bracing and a real 4 bolt box
-Proper caster is not talked about enough. Ackerman and alignment are important too
-More fluid volume in an assist or full hydro setup puts a lot more demand on the pump
-Finding a way to keep high steer arm studs tight is critical
-Rear suspension and locker selection can affect steering control while climbing almost as much as the steering itself
-Hose routing to prevent chafing is important, but field serviceable fittings are amazing if you need to make a new line on the trail
-Good steering is something that is built into the entire plan of the rig itself, rather than an afterthought. I could go on and on about this, but this just means that trusses are built for correct cylinder mounting, rear axle width and wheel backspacing are chosen for ideal ackerman, tie rods are placed for max. uptravel, etc etc.

BigDaveZJ
09-01-2010, 01:27 PM
For a relatively lightly modded rig, I've been content with my setup. Its a biatch to turn sometimes, but its been durable and has tolerable handling characteristics.

I have no drop pitman arm or drop trackbar bracket, just the KOR trackbar. I put Currie steering on my rig like 5 years ago and its held up well for me, but steering systems bought more recently don't seem to be as good.

I also upgraded the box to a Waggy 4 bolt with a brace using a MORE clamp that ties into both unibody rails.

Eventually I will go hydro assist, but not on a D30.

For street manners I think I need to play with my caster a bit as I have very little return to center and a slight wander.

One thing I think a lot of people overlook when trying to nail down looseness in a stockish steering setup is the joints in the steering column. That column is designed for stock tires going down the road where it is very easy for the box to move the drag link. Put some big tires on there, air them down, and put some rocks in the way and it can get pretty hard to move everything. To compensate for that most of us put more force on the wheel hoping to move the tires. While everything from the box to the tires may be set up for those bigger loads, the components from the wheel to the box probably are not.

Ken L
09-01-2010, 04:11 PM
I'll echo Dave's comments, although all I did was upgrade the stock tie rod to a heavy duty one from somewhere--I don't remember right off hand where though. It is about twice the size of the stock tie rod, and has held up well.

My biggest issue with the stock steering has been burning out the pump, so when I replaced the pump I converted the stock tow package auxilary transmission cooler into the power steering cooler. It seems to help, although turning when in the rocks is still a beyotch sometimes. 33s are about all I want to try to turn with the D30 front, even with a selectable locker in it.

An upgrade to a 4-bolt Waggy box is in my future, as is bracing the box to the passenger's side frame rail.

I am very interested in this subject, thanks for making it TOTM!

SirFuego
09-01-2010, 04:32 PM
-Proper caster is not talked about enough. Ackerman and alignment are important too
Care to talk about this a bit more? Reading up on full hydro steering, there are a lot of people that talk about Ackerman angles and a lot of people say that it's worthless on a trail rig. I definitely understand it's benefits in high speed applications and DD applications, but how much does it really matter for a trail rig? I have a basic understanding of Ackerman angle, but it might be good to start with a simple explanation of what it is for those that don't know.

fredr1980
09-01-2010, 09:16 PM
Outside of swapping over to "1-ton" steering, hydro assist is the second best mod I've made to the steering system. When I ran the D30 I had the stock style steering draglink with an upgraded tie-rod from the old-school poison spyder customs with their proprietary tie-rod ends... the ends were great (7/8" IIRC) never destroyed one but their tie-rod ended up pretzeling up over time. Went over to 1-ton chevy type steering, stuff was beef and held up so good it outlasted the D30 and now lives on my D44.

Hydro assist was a good upgrade, but I've learned from my first attempt at it on my wifes CJ-7 that bigger hoses mean more flow and a bit quicker steering response... ran 1/4" hose on her first set-up based on what I read online and steering was a bit slow until I upgraded to 3/8" hose. Also I did the budget surplus city 6-inch ram on hers and it seemed to have a bit of a quicker steering response going one direction VS the other (pass vs driver side) even after extensive bleeding of the system. I'm running a PSC 6-inch ram on my set-up and maybe it's just me but I don't notice a different steering response in one direction vs the other. I did the "west texas steering pump mod" on the wife's CJ as the stock pump on those old AMC motors sucked and it pepped up the system quite a bit, but I didn't find it necessary on my rig as with the hydro-assist with it locked up and aired down to like 5 PSI, steering required the same effort as steering a stock vehicle on pavement so I left it alone. I might eventually go with an underdrive pully from PSC though as sometimes when the front's locked and really bound up I need to rev it a bit to get some more flow, but it hasn't bothered me enough to swap it just yet so it stays for now. Running steering coolers on both set-ups now which is a must as you'll overheat the system pretty quick with hydro assist if you run constantly locked... so far I'm pretty content with how both systems have turned out.

Fred R.

Jeeptech01
09-01-2010, 09:39 PM
This may seem basic but IIRC the I6 ZJ had an uber weak tie rod that could be upgraded with factory parts to a V8 one for a substantial strength upgrade.

Also excess backlash within the steering gear can develop over time. It is easily repairable. Locate the steering gear lash adjuster (allen headed stud with a 5/8 or 11/16 jam nut) and loosen the jam nut while holding the center stud with an allen wrench. With the vehicle off, have an assistant or mildly capable drunken friend wiggle the steering wheel back and forth to the limits of its freeplay while slowly tightening the center stud until all freeplay is gone. Then tighten jam nut.

*Do the above with care as tightening the lash too much will undoubtedly bring the suck AND ruin the steering gear*

ed: Id really like to see some otk setups and mods done to the axleside tb bracket so I can get some ideas for my HP30 build. Im not real sure how to go about changing the tb bracket.

SirFuego
09-01-2010, 10:10 PM
Here is a picture of my HP30 steering setup:
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p302/SirFuego/DSC00254.jpg

It is an inverted T setup using Chevy 1-ton tie rod ends. You can get the TREs at any auto parts store, but here is a nice kit that has all 4 TREs included:
http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/TRE-kit-includes-ES2233L-40141-ES2027L-40141-and-ES2234R-40241_p_1203.html

One big thing to consider is that each of these TREs require one to ream out each knuckle, the pitman arm, and the ES2027L TRE with a 7 degree reamer. This unfortunately isn't something you can just run to the store to pick up. I think you can get one from Napa, but the quality of it has varied.

I'm admittedly not sure where my axle-side trackbar bracket came from. I thought it was from Ballistic (my friend already had this), but I'm not seeing it on their website. I know that Clayton Offroad includes an adjustable track bar bracket with their front axle brackets. I don't know if they sell it separately, but I don't see why they wouldn't:
http://claytonoffroad.com/product_info.php?cPath=20_58&products_id=83

There are two things I do not like about this steering setup:
1) There is a small dead spot due to the tie rod "rolling" over due to the drag link forces. You can get a little spacer from JCROffroad (http://www.jcroffroad.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=1TNSTBSH&Category_Code=S6) to remedy this, but I've never had that spacer last more than two wheeling trips, so I just started dealing with the dead spot. I have been wanting to use a hole saw on a polyethylene cutting board (yes, that thing you use in the kitchen) and make my own, but never did.

2) I've bent 3 passenger side TREs -- 2 on the draglink and one of the passenger knuckle TRE. I really don't know that there is a way around this other than high steer.

Jeeptech01
09-01-2010, 11:12 PM
So it deletes the steering stabilizer but I suppose one could be installed from the tb to dl. The idea for the spacer sounds cool too. I was planning on using wj knuckles for the brakes but with 3-4" lift didnt want to run the full highsteer so the tb bracket wouldnt be so high. So I figured Id just run an otk style setup in the tierod holes and cut off the dl arm from the pass knuckle. Anybody see an issue with that?

Why are you bending the tre's? Are you running them out of travel?

SirFuego
09-01-2010, 11:28 PM
So it deletes the steering stabilizer
Yes, but I supposed one could easily be added. I had no bump steer, so I never found a need for it. There was a set of rail road tracks everyone slowed down to about 5-10 mph for where I used to live. The day I drove the Jeep home, I drove over the tracks at about 30-35mph and the thing tracked straight as an arrow.


Why are you bending the tre's? Are you running them out of travel?
It had nothing to do with the travel and everything to do with them getting rammed into rocks.

rstrucks
09-02-2010, 12:36 AM
The first steering setup on my ZJ was an OTK tie rod and WJ knuckles with the higher drag link attachment point. It used heims and .250 wall DOM. It worked well took and few hits but after about 7-8K miles and a fair amount of trail use a couple of the heims did start to show some wear. I also ran a steering box brace.

http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo22/ryanshand/Moab%20-%20Arizona%20trip/IMG_0887.jpg

After going from 35's to 37's I ran the same system a couple of times and it actually wasn't that bad unless the front end was bound up. Once it was bound up I had to get the Jeep moving to turn the damn thing so I upgraded to hydro assist. I'm running a PSC kit with a worked TJ pump and I've been really happy with it the couple of times I've had it out. I also reinforced the area around the box attachment area and added a cooler. I have already picked up a new spare pressure line and I plan on picking up a spare steering box and pump to at least put in the back of the truck when out wheeling. Spare fittings and hoses are a good idea - I used my spare hose the first time out. Not on my rig but used it none the less. ;)

http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo22/ryanshand/ZJ%20build%20pics/IMG_2458.jpg

http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo22/ryanshand/ZJ%20build%20pics/IMG_2463.jpg




Also excess backlash within the steering gear can develop over time. It is easily repairable. Locate the steering gear lash adjuster (allen headed stud with a 5/8 or 11/16 jam nut) and loosen the jam nut while holding the center stud with an allen wrench. With the vehicle off, have an assistant or mildly capable drunken friend wiggle the steering wheel back and forth to the limits of its freeplay while slowly tightening the center stud until all freeplay is gone. Then tighten jam nut.

To add to what Tech said - Mark the position of the center stud before you start adjusting too. Once you remove any slack or freeplay, I'd even back the adjuster off just a little bit before you tighten down the jam nut. Use caution (obviously) when making adjustments!


I was planning on using wj knuckles for the brakes but with 3-4" lift didnt want to run the full highsteer so the tb bracket wouldnt be so high. So I figured Id just run an otk style setup in the tierod holes and cut off the dl arm from the pass knuckle. Anybody see an issue with that?


If you do just run the OTK can you just leave the factory "high steer" arm in place instead of cutting it off? It might be worth it to just build a taller, strong track bar bracket?

downtowncb
09-02-2010, 12:42 AM
ATL school me on ackerman angle... what is an ideal value for a freeway driven rig such as ours? How is it measured? It appears it is affected by toe...

I am running ORO's U-Turn steering and it seems that it has a lot more "scrub" at full lock than the factory steering did, is this a greater ackerman angle by any chance? It seems to wear out the inside of the tire a lot quicker so I really have to stay on top of rotating my tires.


So it deletes the steering stabilizer but I suppose one could be installed from the tb to dl.

Tech, this is what I did when I swapped to coil overs and could no longer fit the stabilizer in it's stock location. It doubles as a steering box brace :D

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d133/dtcb70/Motor%20Swap/IMG_0949.jpg

BigDaveZJ
09-02-2010, 12:47 AM
So it deletes the steering stabilizer but I suppose one could be installed from the tb to dl.

I haven't run a steering stabilizer on mine for years now. No shimmy or other adverse effects.

IndyZJ
09-02-2010, 02:02 AM
I haven't run a steering stabilizer on mine for years now. No shimmy or other adverse effects.

Same here. Stabilizers are great for covering slop in parts as they get worn, which I think is what they're really for. I would rather know if and when something is on it's way out. In my experience, they have never made a difference in the way the wheel reacts to hitting something or done any kind of "stabilizing". The last stabilizer I put on my ZJ leaked out without me noticing over the course of about 5k miles. It was new when I put it on, but shot when I pulled it to see if it really was doing anything after reading similar opinions. It hasn't had one for a couple years now, and neither will my YJ.

Jeeptech01
09-02-2010, 10:56 AM
Thanks for the replies guys. I havent ever designed a steering setup so all this info is very helpful. Im sure I can find a place for a stabilizer. I honestly dont need one to cover up anything but I do feel that they are helpful when hitting things with larger than stock tires that will try to pull the steering wheel from your hands. My wife drives my rig from time to time.

Not many rocks in Fl so I should be ok with the tre's

Tks Fuego

Ryan thanks for posting that. I think we spoke about your setup in another thread. I'd prefer to run tre's since it is my dd and Im not sure how the rod ends would fare in that type of enviornment. As far as the tb mount goes I figured I'd try and keep it simple since going otk instead of highsteer would only require the tb mount maybe 1-1.5 higher so I could probably mod the stock config as well as save some uptravel since Im only around 3" of lift. In the future I hope to go up to 4" on 35's.

I know what everyone says about dumping cash into a 30 too so I am trying to be careful how much bling I add but at the same time cheaping out on steering = stupid. Im not sure what will happen with the 30+5.3vortec+33's-35's+florida sand/mud+lighter xj wheeling equation. Hiopefully not = boom for a while.

rstrucks
09-02-2010, 11:11 AM
Good steering is something that is built into the entire plan of the rig itself, rather than an afterthought. I could go on and on about this, but this just means that trusses are built for correct cylinder mounting, rear axle width and wheel backspacing are chosen for ideal ackerman, tie rods are placed for max. uptravel, etc etc.

Did you mean scrub radius when you were talking about choosing wheel back spacing? Ackerman (from my understanding) only has to do with the relationship of the front axle pivot points (king pins or ball joints) and the steering linkage (tie rod) attachment points.



For a simple explantion - Ackerman is the term for having your steering tires/wheels turn at slightlly different angles while turning. The outside tire needs to turn less (larger arc) than the inside tire (smaller arc) and without ackerman angle built in the tires would scrub through a turn. To picture it - if you drew a line straight out from your rear axle and then drew two lines perpindicular to each wheel while turned, where they intersect the rear axle line they should meet. That would put the tires turning around the same center point.

SirFuego
09-02-2010, 11:23 AM
One other thing I'd like to stress, from personal experience, is the need for a steering box brace and power steering cooler when you are running bigger tires. Many folks on here have made their own steering box brace, but you can purchase one through Kevin's Offroad:
http://kevinsoffroad.com/zj/zj_steeringgearbrace.html

I have not had any steering issues since I've installed the brace. A little side note is that it mounts to the sway bar mount, so if you have removed those altogether, you will need to use a couple washers to get it to line up.

A waggy box, which mounts using 4 bolts, is a good alternative to a stock steering box. In both instances where I cracked my steering box on the trails, you can tell the fracture was due to stresses put on the box that would have been eliminated by the 4th bolt.

Steering box failure usually occurs due to the steering box bolts loosening up over time. However, that is not always the case because my bolts were not loose the second time I broke a steering box. I would feel a little "pop" in my steering wheel when the box was fractured.

The power steering cooler is a good idea because the bigger tires put more stress on the steering box, which creates more heat. You can get a power steering cooler from basically anywhere. Mine is from Summit Racing:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DER-13200/

One last thing is that when you check over your rig before and/or after you wheel, be sure to check the tightness of not only the steering box bolts, but also the pitman arm nut. The pitman arm nut can become loose even over the span of a day when your steering box is working hard. I was told by a friend that the pitman arm nut should be the "tightest nut on your vehicle". Before going down to GSSE this year, I made sure everything was tight. After finishing up wheeling the first day, I checked over the rig the next morning and was able to rotate the pitman arm nut about 1.5 revolutions before I couldn't tighten it anymore.

ajmorell
09-02-2010, 12:02 PM
Also excess backlash within the steering gear can develop over time. It is easily repairable. Locate the steering gear lash adjuster (allen headed stud with a 5/8 or 11/16 jam nut) and loosen the jam nut while holding the center stud with an allen wrench. With the vehicle off, have an assistant or mildly capable drunken friend wiggle the steering wheel back and forth to the limits of its freeplay while slowly tightening the center stud until all freeplay is gone. Then tighten jam nut.

*Do the above with care as tightening the lash too much will undoubtedly bring the suck AND ruin the steering gear*

I was told by several other people that to make this adjustment the vehicle needs to be running unless you have a manual steering box. :confused:

Jeeptech01
09-02-2010, 02:32 PM
I have always done it with it off so you get a more accurate feel for the level of slop in the box. With assist from the ps pump the loosness may be exagerated.

SB406
09-02-2010, 02:55 PM
1) There is a small dead spot due to the tie rod "rolling" over due to the drag link forces. You can get a little spacer from JCROffroad (http://www.jcroffroad.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=1TNSTBSH&Category_Code=S6) to remedy this, but I've never had that spacer last more than two wheeling trips, so I just started dealing with the dead spot. I have been wanting to use a hole saw on a polyethylene cutting board (yes, that thing you use in the kitchen) and make my own, but never did.


Why not just rotate the tie rod ends to oppose each other? That's how I keep my ram from rolling the tie rod over.

Also, Hydro Assist takes a ton of stress off the steering box by pushing off the axle instead of the frame.

SB406
09-14-2010, 03:13 PM
3rd (in Progress)
Full hydro. Same 2x8 Single ended tractor ram as above, mounted in same position. Removed the drag link and steering box. Added a 5.9 Cu in orbital. Stock pump with no mods (so far). Initial tests seem excellent. Steering is very fast and responsive.
Initial test drive confirmed that the pump could not perform at low RPM. This was a case of poor parts store quality. The pump was on for 1 run and was feeling sluggish by the end of the weekend. Changed pump, and it seems much better in the shop. Next test drive will be 4WD in a couple of days. I may need to bump up the relief pressure a touch.
Will report back with results.
Cost to upgrade- $225

Update- I ended up having to bump up the relief pressure in the pump (West Texas mod). I didn't drill anything. Just turned up the pressure. It worked very well this past weekend at Big Dogs. It was slightly underpowered turning left in a couple of spots where I was really bound up, but I liked the fact that I didn't have enough power to rip knuckles off. It was very fast and responsive on hill climbs, as I found out coming up hells hole when I got bounced in the ruts. I was able to whip the wheel one way, then the other without having to lift.

Jeeptech01
09-20-2010, 12:35 PM
I have a question I'd like answered if someone could. It is in regard to keeping the tb and dl in paralell.

So if one goes to an otk setup the tb and dl will no longer be paralell. There are 2 forseeable ways to fix this (at least to me) one easy and one hard/time consuming.

1) Build higher tb mount on axle which will mean moving it inboard and shortening the tb. This will result in paralell tb and dl that are in the same plane but will follow a different arc due to length differences.

2) Change pittman arm to make dl and tb paralell but they wont be in the same plane. However they will follow similar arc since they are very close in length.

Please correct me If Im wrong on my above statements/assumptions. My question is this what are the strengths/weaknesses and drivability issues with the above solutions. Im trying to figure out which way is right for me.

slim616
09-20-2010, 09:55 PM
I haven't seen this mentioned here but I know it been covered in other post. We should go over pumps and tips on keeping them from burning up. I mailed my PSC pump out today to see if they'll warranty it. I was thinking about picking up another and throwing it in and just keeping the old one as a spare in case of problems. What do you all suggest. If i remember correctly I think the majority had like Howe i think?

Also just MY .02 when you upgrade to hydro assist or full hydro, spare parts are a must to keep with you. By not having them really brings the suck when you try to get the rig off the trail.

This is one thing I at least like about hydro assist is if something goes wrong you can just cap the lines and still limp it off the trail. Full hrdryo means your screwed till you can fix the parts.

ATL ZJ
09-20-2010, 10:13 PM
I haven't seen this mentioned here but I know it been covered in other post. We should go over pumps and tips on keeping them from burning up. I mailed my PSC pump out today to see if they'll warranty it. I was thinking about picking up another and throwing it in and just keeping the old one as a spare in case of problems. What do you all suggest. If i remember correctly I think the majority had like Howe i think?

Also just MY .02 when you upgrade to hydro assist or full hydro, spare parts are a must to keep with you. By not having them really brings the suck when you try to get the rig off the trail.

This is one thing I at least like about hydro assist is if something goes wrong you can just cap the lines and still limp it off the trail. Full hrdryo means your screwed till you can fix the parts.

This is why I have been preaching field serviceable fittings for the last 3 years. ;)

I love my stock Chevy van pump. And if I do blow one, they are a stock item at every mom and pop and chain parts store in America. BTW I carry two power steering pump pullers with me in my big box of wheeling junk, just in case... if any of you guys ever need to borrow one when we are on the trail together :D

cLAYH
09-26-2010, 03:45 PM
I burned out two pumps on my hydro assist before I smarted up and added a cooler. Just used a regular tranny cooler and plumbed it into the return line.

I'm using an 8" ram with a 4" bore. Its a bit slow, either need a bigger flow pump or smaller ram. Thinking maybe a smaller ram since I've got tons of power as it is. My setup naturally bottoms out before the knuckles do so no problem there.

SB406
09-27-2010, 11:11 AM
4" bore.

:eek:Are you sure? :eek:
Pics? My log splitter has a 4" bore ram!
That would be hella slow but definately have some power.

ATL ZJ
09-27-2010, 11:35 AM
:eek:Are you sure? :eek:
Pics? My log splitter has a 4" bore ram!
That would be hella slow but definately have some power.

Holy crap, why would you ever use a 4" cylinder? You couldn't pay me to run that, especially on a 44 :smt037

zjeepin
09-27-2010, 12:37 PM
Since its still september for a few more days I'll post up my current steering problem..

I'm in the process of switching from my single ended ram to a balanced cylinder.

The problem I have is that my orbital puts out 10.2 cu/in/rev, with the common size of balanced cylinders being 2.5x8x1.5(shaft) i'll only have 2.5 turns lock to lock.

does anyone know of a cylinder with a smaller shaft? 1.25 would be perfect as i'd have right at 3 turns

SirFuego
09-27-2010, 01:01 PM
Is there any way you can rework your steering to allow for a 10" stroke lock to lock? 2.5x1.5x10 would put you right at 3 turns. I don't know how long that would require your hi-steer arms to be, so that might not be doable. Definitely more complicated than just getting the right-size ram to begin with, though.

Might want to post on Pirate and see if anyone is willing to trade for a setup around 8 cu/in/rev.

AgitatedPancake
09-27-2010, 01:05 PM
Long hi-steer arms you have to start worrying about fitting them inside the wheel. Leaning the hi-steer arm inward toward the center of the truck to clear the rim/tire would throw your ackerman outta whack too...hmm

ATL ZJ
09-27-2010, 02:01 PM
Since its still september for a few more days I'll post up my current steering problem..

I'm in the process of switching from my single ended ram to a balanced cylinder.

The problem I have is that my orbital puts out 10.2 cu/in/rev, with the common size of balanced cylinders being 2.5x8x1.5(shaft) i'll only have 2.5 turns lock to lock.

does anyone know of a cylinder with a smaller shaft? 1.25 would be perfect as i'd have right at 3 turns

I hate to say this but I think you need to swap orbitals... Think anybody would be willing to trade you straight up for a lower displacement orbital? Yours would be perfect in one of those neon color tube hill climber buggies that never go fast. I think 2.5 turns is a little too quick to be safe on the gravel and the street with either the PSC or surplus center cylinders, unless you wanted to swap on a mongo schoolbus steering wheel or something. And it would suck to buy a fluid hungry cylinder and find out your pump doesn't have enough flow, just because of an oddball orbital...

you could always just try the 2.5 turns and if you end up not liking it, you can be on the lookout to trade your orbital. not having run 2.5 turns I can only guess as to what it would feel like...

SB406
09-27-2010, 02:27 PM
PSC has a 3" DE ram with 1.5" Rods. The 10.2 Orbital would be 3.25 turns Lock to lock with that.
What was your old setup? 2.5" SE cylinder?

ATL ZJ
09-27-2010, 02:38 PM
PSC has a 3" DE ram with 1.5" Rods. The 10.2 Orbital would be 3.25 turns Lock to lock with that.
What was your old setup? 2.5" SE cylinder?

And it would be nonstop pump lag with his current pump. That is way more volume than you need for what we do.

zjeepin
09-27-2010, 02:39 PM
thanks for the thoughts fellers..

yes, the old setup was 2.5 single ended, 1.125 shaft so the larger displacement was perfect, i had 3.5 turns lock to lock..

The larger cylinder from psc is a good option i think, it costs a good bit more but would still be cheaper than buying another orbital..

i have an idea on someone who would benefit by trading orbitals.. just gotta see if i can talk him into it...

I may just give it a try with 2.5 turns..

any thoughts on using flow control to slow it down a little?

ATL ZJ
09-27-2010, 02:43 PM
thanks for the thoughts fellers..

yes, the old setup was 2.5 single ended, 1.125 shaft so the larger displacement was perfect, i had 3.5 turns lock to lock..

The larger cylinder from psc is a good option i think, it costs a good bit more but would still be cheaper than buying another orbital..

i have an idea on someone who would benefit by trading orbitals.. just gotta see if i can talk him into it...

I may just give it a try with 2.5 turns..

any thoughts on using flow control to slow it down a little?


Haha I think I know who...

You could also go with an enormous cylinder like 3" and use it as a reason to build a 4.0l dual p/s pump bracket :D

zjeepin
09-27-2010, 02:46 PM
it'd be nice if someone made a cylinder with a smaller effin shaft!

i also thought about buying one of the cylinders and having the shaft ground down ( i know a guy) but then i don't know how i'd go about a seal then..

SB406
09-27-2010, 02:54 PM
And it would be nonstop pump lag with his current pump. That is way more volume than you need for what we do.

I have no idea what his current pump is, but I'd imagine you're right. Just throwing it out there since one of my buddies runs the PSC 3" Rockwell ram. Of course, he's feeding it with a PSC pump and turns 54's, but that's another story all together...:D

What about a larger PS pulley instead of a flow control valve to decrease the pump flow, if in fact, it turns too fast with the 10.2 orbital and 2.5" DE?

ATL ZJ
09-27-2010, 03:01 PM
I have no idea what his current pump is, but I'd imagine you're right. Just throwing it out there since one of my buddies runs the PSC 3" Rockwell ram. Of course, he's feeding it with a PSC pump and turns 54's, but that's another story all together...:D some people do prefer to open their beers with a sledgehammer...


What about a larger PS pulley instead of a flow control valve to decrease the pump flow, if in fact, it turns too fast with the 10.2 orbital and 2.5" DE?edit: nevermind you said Larger. I misread

trey, there actually is a machine shop in TN that makes custom cylinders. They are the same one that makes the ones POS sells/sold. I have no idea if they would do a one-off, but I could try to dig up their info. Seems like that would be better than modifying a shaft, trying to chase down pistons and seals and get the shaft recoated

zjeepin
09-27-2010, 03:12 PM
cam if you get a minute see if you can find that info.. it can't hurt to ask.

im working on the orbital trade as we speak.. that would be the best option.

so i guess the answer to my origonal question is -no, no one makes a balanced cylinder with a smaller shaft.?

ATL ZJ
09-27-2010, 03:19 PM
cam if you get a minute see if you can find that info.. it can't hurt to ask.

im working on the orbital trade as we speak.. that would be the best option.

so i guess the answer to my origonal question is -no, no one makes a balanced cylinder with a smaller shaft.?

I'll try to look, if not this afternoon, tonight.

howe's are all 2.25" bore IIRC and rockstomper used to make one with a nitrosteel shaft, don't recall the bore and shaft size, but I'm not sure if it is still being produced...

ATL ZJ
09-27-2010, 03:23 PM
:easybutton:

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=eagle+machine+TN&fb=1&gl=us&hq=eagle+machine&hnear=Tennessee&cid=0,0,1089354514283305761&ei=w-CgTK--I8SclgeB94WuDw&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQnwIwAA

SirFuego
09-27-2010, 04:42 PM
any thoughts on using flow control to slow it down a little?

That thought crossed my mind, but I'm not a hydraulics expert to know reliable (and expensive) flow control is for this application, so I just decided to not say anything in favor of KISS.

cLAYH
09-28-2010, 02:53 AM
:eek:Are you sure? :eek:
Pics? My log splitter has a 4" bore ram!
That would be hella slow but definately have some power.


HEH HEH, my bad. Its a 1.75 bore. I was doing some measurements and the outer case is like 4" and that got stuck in my head. Sorry about that.

Jeeptech01
09-28-2010, 09:51 AM
Anybody???


I have a question I'd like answered if someone could. It is in regard to keeping the tb and dl in paralell.

So if one goes to an otk setup the tb and dl will no longer be paralell. There are 2 forseeable ways to fix this (at least to me) one easy and one hard/time consuming.

1) Build higher tb mount on axle which will mean moving it inboard and shortening the tb. This will result in paralell tb and dl that are in the same plane but will follow a different arc due to length differences.

2) Change pittman arm to make dl and tb paralell but they wont be in the same plane. However they will follow similar arc since they are very close in length.

Please correct me If Im wrong on my above statements/assumptions. My question is this what are the strengths/weaknesses and drivability issues with the above solutions. Im trying to figure out which way is right for me.

rstrucks
09-28-2010, 10:44 AM
I have a question I'd like answered if someone could. It is in regard to keeping the tb and dl in paralell.

So if one goes to an otk setup the tb and dl will no longer be paralell. There are 2 forseeable ways to fix this (at least to me) one easy and one hard/time consuming.

1) Build higher tb mount on axle which will mean moving it inboard and shortening the tb. This will result in paralell tb and dl that are in the same plane but will follow a different arc due to length differences.

2) Change pittman arm to make dl and tb paralell but they wont be in the same plane. However they will follow similar arc since they are very close in length.

Please correct me If Im wrong on my above statements/assumptions. My question is this what are the strengths/weaknesses and drivability issues with the above solutions. Im trying to figure out which way is right for me.

You're right on 1 and 2. My preference would be to have the DL and TB close to the same length (scenario 2). Either one works but it probably has more to do with what you have room for and what works best on a particular rig. Think about this, in either situation you will minimize bump steer on the street and only in high travel situations will you actually get any bumpsteer at all. Unless you plan on desert racing style wheeling you would probably never notice the minimal bump steer from scenario 1.

Like almost everything, it's a compromise.

Jeeptech01
09-28-2010, 01:04 PM
Thanks for answering that for me! Option 2 seems like alot less work but I didnt want to fook my drivability by taking the easy way out. I have been doing alot of reading on the subject but it seemed like a 50/50 split on the same plane vs different arc debate.

SirFuego
09-28-2010, 01:43 PM
I'm going to be taking my steering off shortly. I'll try to remember to measure the eye to eye lengths of my drag link and track bar. I know they were almost completely parallel and I had no bump steer, but I don't think they are the same length, but I could be very wrong about that because the mounting points are slightly offset.

I used to live by a set of rail road tracks that everyone slowed down to like 5 mph to go over. The night I drove home my Jeep after the steering was setup, I drove over those tracks at about 30 with zero bump steer.

Jeeptech01
09-28-2010, 01:46 PM
Cool. Were the tb and dl in the same plane or just paralell.

Cant reacall if your rig is torn down or not yet.

ed: nevermind. Forgot you posted that pic on pg 1.

SirFuego
10-12-2010, 05:37 PM
Yeah, it's not september anymore, but I don't care...

Assuming a comparison of single sheer hi-steer arms with the same mounting bolt pattern, are there any significant differences between different brands of hi-steer arms in terms of strength and reliability?

What are your thoughts on the "keyway" ideas in the Crane and Solid knuckles? Does the area that now needs to be machined out of the hi-steer arm just make the hi-steer arm too weak?

ATL ZJ
10-12-2010, 06:11 PM
The keyways don't remove enough material to reduce significant strength IMO. You are gonna break a half dozen knuckle studs long before you shear a 3" wide slab of 1/2" to 1" thick steel. The only time I could see a high steer arm failing is if it was not wide enough, had bend(s) in it for clearance, and was super long to give the hydraulics too much leverage on it. Even then you might have to make it out of material that is complete junk to see a failure.

SB406
10-13-2010, 02:31 PM
X2.
The keyway is clutch for keeping the arm from moving (even just a little). Once the arm is able to wiggle, it's a time bomb and you WILL shear studs. As I recall, Ryan's keyed arms are a slight interference fit to ensure that no wiggle can happen.

SirFuego
10-13-2010, 02:38 PM
Thanks guys. I haven't really heard about steering arms breaking, but figured I'd ask to see if anyone has experienced it before. It seems that basically everyone makes hi-steer arms, so I just wanted to be sure that it didn't really matter where to get them from as long as it's compatible with the knuckle and long enough to get the desired steering radius.

fluxcap
06-04-2011, 12:14 AM
If this is covered elsewhere, point me to it.... Anyway, for the WJ, If I go with high steer, you flip the tb, then to have clearance for the ball joints, you flip the dl. That takes the track bar out of whack....

That being said, what is the consensus in the IRO tie rod with heims, bearing in mind I am limiting the $$$ I throw at the 30 as I save up for a swap. My assumption is that with the thinner heims I need not fuck with all the angles and can just flip the tie rod.

Yes, It is my dd more or less. I drive a truck and only commute 2 days a week.

biggoofy
03-02-2012, 08:36 PM
Bringing this back because I need some input on rod ends for my new steering on the HP44. Im looking at the ruff stuff 7/8 by 3/4 bore heims with 1.5" ID tube adapters for my tie rod and drag link safety mis allignments on the tie rod and tie rod end of the drag link with high mis allignment spacers at the pitman arm. What do yall think will the 1.5 ID make me have to run to big of a OD tube to still have strength?

ZJ TINS
03-09-2012, 09:57 AM
Jeep magazine has a reccomendation to drill out the hole which limits the amount of PS fluid being pumped (in the PS pump). Seems to have (they claim) a much better response on and off trail. Anyone try this? Any down side to it?

moparrr07
10-03-2012, 11:01 PM
Jeep magazine has a reccomendation to drill out the hole which limits the amount of PS fluid being pumped (in the PS pump). Seems to have (they claim) a much better response on and off trail. Anyone try this? Any down side to it?

do you have a link or any reference to this, i couldnt find it

Brad S
04-09-2013, 04:33 PM
Has anyone that has done a OTK upgrade for steering used tapered inserts instead of reaming the knuckles and pitman arm?

I was contemplating the JCR OTK steering package, but can't get excited about spending $80+ on a tool I may use once or twice...

dyn0mitemat
04-09-2013, 04:38 PM
By the time you buy the inserts your half way to the price of the tool. I've lent my reamer out to a few club members now and have it paid for, upto you though there's plenty of people whom have used the inserts

Brad S
04-09-2013, 06:30 PM
By the time you buy the inserts your half way to the price of the tool. I've lent my reamer out to a few club members now and have it paid for, upto you though there's plenty of people whom have used the inserts

I finally found a thread that indicated Irwin 11221 reamers are the same thing as many of the $80+ reamers.

$30 is much more feasible
http://www.amazon.com/Irwin-11221-Repair-Pouched-Reamer/dp/B003JZARBU

Rooster51
04-10-2013, 02:02 AM
Jeep magazine has a reccomendation to drill out the hole which limits the amount of PS fluid being pumped (in the PS pump). Seems to have (they claim) a much better response on and off trail. Anyone try this? Any down side to it?

Cant remember where, but I read that it can be done. But, it makes highway steering squirrely/ too responsive, and you will need to add more fluid because it's being cycled faster, or pump burnout.

UTChavok
05-15-2013, 06:45 PM
Heres my set up and I've been happy with it. Fabbed up a mount to make the drag link double shear on the knuckle to try to prevent it from wallowing out.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-8qQ0JFbMIwc/UVI8WNqtVOI/AAAAAAAAAPg/gBdAu-Nxzv4/s855/DSCN0217.JPG

Yes I do have a locking nut on the pitman arm now.
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/561349_10152801426595425_388001276_n.jpg

ZJ TINS
05-16-2013, 12:40 PM
from May 2012 Jp issue

Modding a P-Pump for $0
Since we were swapping in a fresh remanufactured pump and we conveniently “forgot” to include the pressure fitting when we turned in the core pump, we thought we’d try an old-school trick. The pressure fitting on a P-Pump has an orifice in the center that restricts the amount of fluid volume that the pump puts out. One of the trail tips we’ve picked up over the years is to drill out this orifice from 9⁄64-inch to 5⁄32-inch to boost the fluid volume to the box, resulting in more steering assist. We tried both stock and modified fittings and were surprised at the results. The larger orifice provided a noticeable increase in assist, almost to the point of over-boosting with our little 31-inch tires on the street. However, the increase was welcome on the trail and would be of definite benefit to Jeeps with 35-inch tires and lockers. The fitting is easily accessible: it’s the external fitting that the pressure line connects to. In many cases, it can be removed without even removing the pump from the vehicle. We’ve also heard of people monkeying with the spring that controls the bypass circuit, but we’ll leave that for later.

Read more: http://www.jpmagazine.com/techarticles/drivetrain/154_1205_junkyard_power_steering_swap_tips_tricks/#ixzz2TTEtfwUM



Content here for when the link dies
Since we were swapping in a fresh remanufactured pump and we conveniently “forgot” to include the pressure fitting when we turned in the core pump, we thought we’d try an old-school trick. The pressure fitting on a P-Pump has an orifice in the center that restricts the amount of fluid volume that the pump puts out. One of the trail tips we’ve picked up over the years is to drill out this orifice from 9⁄64-inch to 5⁄32-inch to boost the fluid volume to the box, resulting in more steering assist. We tried both stock and modified fittings and were surprised at the results. The larger orifice provided a noticeable increase in assist, almost to the point of over-boosting with our little 31-inch tires on the street. However, the increase was welcome on the trail and would be of definite benefit to Jeeps with 35-inch tires and lockers. The fitting is easily accessible: it’s the external fitting that the pressure line connects to. In many cases, it can be removed without even removing the pump from the vehicle. We’ve also heard of people monkeying with the spring that controls the bypass circuit, but we’ll leave that for later.