PDA

View Full Version : Bolt-together roll cage



1fox2go
03-11-2009, 08:00 PM
Anyone have any experience with cages like this? Thoughts?

My dad was looking at this one, he talked to a few welders and they said that the clamps distributed the load better than the weld

http://www.rockhard4x4parts.com/xj-84.html

OverkillZJ
03-11-2009, 08:36 PM
Distribute load.. maybe, hold up to load.. let me know

I don't see how any welder would say a few 1/8" bolts would hold up better than a good weld.

Either way, it would be better than nothing.

1fox2go
03-11-2009, 08:52 PM
True. What about the front dash pieces? I know Poison Spyder used those for their roll cages in the TJs. How well do you think they would work for the XJ?

I'm thinking if those pieces would be good to use, we could get those, order a tube bender and make our own cage

paulkeith
03-12-2009, 09:49 AM
i've always heard that a cage design should never rely on the strength of its welds to be sound, but the strength of the material and the design. continuous load paths, members in compression and not bending, etc. The cage should be a self-supporting structure even if every node was a pinned joint free to move.

I'd agree with the 'gotta be better than nothing' sentiment. I'd just buy a welder and bender and learn to do it myself if I were you though.

My 0.02.
paul

ATL ZJ
03-12-2009, 09:55 AM
i've always heard that a cage design should never rely on the strength of its welds to be sound, but the strength of the material and the design. continuous load paths, members in compression and not bending, etc.

I'd agree with the 'gotta be better than nothing' sentiment. I'd just buy a welder and bender and learn to do it myself if I were you though.

My 0.02.
paul


ding ding winner. In a proper cage or tube chassis design, each joint could be replaced by a heim joint or rod end, and the structure would still be as solid. Meaning that none of your joints should rely on side loading for structural integrity of the whole. Hard to accomplish in a ZJ internal cage, but certainly something to strive for.

MoonWorks
03-12-2009, 10:21 AM
All of rockhard's cages are bolt in. He's actually got a patent on the clamps that he uses now. So he's told me that he's had great success with them and also told me that they were stronger than welds.

It's not really a bad kit at all. Its a great for the "back yard", do-it-yourself type person w/out a welder. This will be 100x's better than the sheet metal that's "protecting" him now.

OverkillZJ
03-12-2009, 10:48 AM
ding ding winner. In a proper cage or tube chassis design, each joint could be replaced by a heim joint or rod end, and the structure would still be as solid. Meaning that none of your joints should rely on side loading for structural integrity of the whole. Hard to accomplish in a ZJ internal cage, but certainly something to strive for.

Fine and dandy in theory, but at some point, somethings got to hold that metal together :best:

indy242003
03-12-2009, 12:03 PM
I always reflect back to race car safety features. They have a ton more resources for engineering safety into the cars. They have the money to pay for testing that we could only dream of. I have yet to see a bolt together cage in a top fuel dragster or in NASCAR. Until I do, I'll stick to the welded construction of cages. Just my opinion, and to each thier own. If it is stronger to bolt rather then weld? We have a saying for that.

In God we trust, all others must bring data.

paulkeith
03-12-2009, 12:20 PM
Also consider that the clamps themselves may be able to distribute load better than a weld, but don't forget the tube itself is also welded to the clamp, so even if the clamp holds better than a weld would, its kind of a moot point.

BigDaveZJ
03-12-2009, 12:25 PM
Buddy of mine has that cage in his XJ. Looked pretty good to me. Cuts down on room a bit in the XJ, but then any internal cage will do that.

1fox2go
03-12-2009, 12:54 PM
So everyone agrees it is better than nothing correct?

to keep somewhat on topic, most would agree to buy a tubing bender and some tube and make our own cages?

In that case, I know nothing about benders, if we were to get one, what should we shoot for?

Also still curious on those front dash pieces? Anyone have any complaints on how they would work for a cage?

Brad S
03-12-2009, 02:28 PM
bender talk:

http://www.mallcrawlin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12102 (http://www.mallcrawlin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12102)

ATL ZJ
03-12-2009, 02:52 PM
So everyone agrees it is better than nothing correct?

Is a dana 35 better than no rear axle? That cage is great for one-time, emergency use, which might be exactly what some people want. The potential issue, however is that it creates a false sense of security leading you to be more risky than you otherwise would.


to keep somewhat on topic, most would agree to buy a tubing bender and some tube and make our own cages?

Not necessarily. If you think you'll just whip together a cage or two, you're in for a surprise. Add in the costs of the bender and wasted tube, and it would likely be cheaper (and better) to have a local shop build something for you. Bending tube and building can be a lot of fun, but don't expect to save any money if you're just doing a few cages.

paulkeith
03-12-2009, 03:26 PM
yeah, its going to depend on a no-bullshit self assesment. If you're anything like a lot of us, it'll eventually grow to consume your entire life and you'll be trying cut sheetmetal anywhere it exists and replace it with tube.

I say If this is a sport you plan on sticking with, invest those $1000 now in the fundamentals (welder, bender, etc) that will have you set for most of the projects and upgrades you'll run into in the future.

SirFuego
03-12-2009, 03:48 PM
So everyone agrees it is better than nothing correct?
How big are you? I'm about 6' and it looks like I'd be constantly hitting my head off of the cage. IIRC Action_Fab has one in his ZJ and he was saying the same thing.

I was checking head clearances in my ZJ and I decided that I want an exo around the driver and passenger because I don't want to worry about hitting my head off of the cage. My buddy has an awesome cage in his XJ, but I would never buy it from him because I'm too tall to fit comfortably (and safely) inside of the cage.

1fox2go
03-12-2009, 05:50 PM
I am aware of the expenses, already have the welder and I was planning on going in half on a bender with my dad. This would be more for the money since we could build a cage for his jeep, mine, redo a friends, make other things as well. We have a lot of farm equipment that having the bender would help repair a lot of things as well

I wasnt necessarily saying it would be cheaper just that it would be better if we took the time to make our own cages that would tailor our needs/wants better than the bolt together unit, not to mention more reassuring. I agree with you on the "having a cage creating that false sense of security. Our wheeling style is not super hardcore, me and my dad like to wheel as though we could drive home if need be, but having a cage would definitely make it easier on the mind just in case.

As for my height I am about 5'10"ish, but my dad is 6'ish so our cages would need to be a bit different

I understand it is going to be a good bit of work

paulkeith
03-12-2009, 07:06 PM
provided "welder" doesn't mean 110 buzzbox, then its time to buy a bender, bendtech, and some tube.

grnd93
03-12-2009, 07:23 PM
I always reflect back to race car safety features. They have a ton more resources for engineering safety into the cars. They have the money to pay for testing that we could only dream of. I have yet to see a bolt together cage in a top fuel dragster or in NASCAR. Until I do, I'll stick to the welded construction of cages. Just my opinion, and to each thier own. If it is stronger to bolt rather then weld? We have a saying for that.

In God we trust, all others must bring data.





All true, but i don't think anyone will be rolling their ZJ at 200+ mph


Is a dana 35 better than no rear axle? That cage is great for one-time, emergency use, which might be exactly what some people want. The potential issue, however is that it creates a false sense of security leading you to be more risky than you otherwise would.

Never trust any cage after it has been through a rollover

DJJordache
03-12-2009, 07:24 PM
rockhard is actually in the process of making one of these for the ZJ =)
Lewis is using a 96 as the template and they are talking about doing bumpers also. maybe if more people emailed and asked how the progress is going (besides me:D) they will work faster with more people interested

1fox2go
03-12-2009, 07:37 PM
provided "welder" doesn't mean 110 buzzbox, then its time to buy a bender, bendtech, and some tube.

I would have a certified welder weld the cage

Yes never trust a cage after it has been rolled

Back on topic, those dash mounts. Good idea? functional? Anyone have input that has experience with cages, Overkill or ATLZJ?

kfab
03-12-2009, 09:30 PM
ha ima welder and if its welded right no,matter what your weld will be stronger than the metal

ATL ZJ
03-12-2009, 09:54 PM
Never trust any cage after it has been through a rollover

This is based on what experience you have? Trim your sig, build a few cages, roll a half dozen times, and then come back and tell me that.

paulkeith
03-12-2009, 11:14 PM
This is based on what experience you have? Trim your sig, build a few cages, roll a half dozen times, and then come back and tell me that.

qft.


I don't like those dash bars. They sacrifice strength for a little bit of ingress/egress convenience. I'd cut through my dash or go around the dash with continuous tube. BUT, you asked for input from people who actually have experience with cages so take it for what its worth.

grnd93
03-13-2009, 06:22 PM
This is based on what experience you have? Trim your sig, build a few cages, roll a half dozen times, and then come back and tell me that.

*sigh* I thought all day whether or not I was even going to respond to this. Guess I decided to. You are right, sir. I have never built a cage, nor have I ever rolled a vehicle...I am impressed by the psychic abilities you used to figure this out, since you know absolutely zero about me. I have been involved in the automotive field, both professionally, and as a hobbiest for over 20 years. Every thing I have heard, read or seen has told me that any vehicle equipped with a cage that goes through a rollover needs to have said cage thoroughly inspected for cracks, bends and any other damage before it can be considered safe.

As for my sig...I don't see what that has to do with anything:confused:

That is all

Mtn WJ
03-13-2009, 10:31 PM
I have seen their kits in person. It was last summer at the High Country open house. I talked to the owner a bit. He seemed to really know what he was doing and I would not hesitate to run his kit. It was not just designed to be bolt in - more designed to protect the passengers in a roll and with the benifit of bolting in. One issue with weld on kits for enclosed Jeeps like XJs and Grands is the installlers cant always get a good weld all around the pipe and in particular on the tops and sides. This causes a lot of inferior welds that a lot of people dont actually see.

Again the kits looked good and well thought out. The mounting methods also looked good. The guy said his daughter drives a WJ and he is considering a kit for them some day. Wish that was sooner than later.

Keith

SirFuego
03-13-2009, 11:03 PM
Never trust any cage after it has been through a rollover


Every thing I have heard, read or seen has told me that any vehicle equipped with a cage that goes through a rollover needs to have said cage thoroughly inspected for cracks, bends and any other damage before it can be considered safe

Those two statements conflict with each other...


But I'm a wee bit under the influence of alcohol, so maybe I'm wrong in this assessment. Good night, Sir :)