School me on 8 lug 44's

[Derek33]

I got a hold of a rear dana 60 for free. Not sure of the year or specs as of yet, but I'm looking for a front axle to match.

I would be either going with a front hp 44 or a front hp 60. I'd be running a 36 or 37 so I'm sure the 44 would be alright... I'd just go with whatever i can get my hands on cheaper and easier.

It appears that 8 lug 44's are harder to find then the normal 5 lug or 6 lug (whatever it may be).

Now I think I've heard about people swapping to chevy knuckles to get flat tops for high steer.... What are the year specifications for this swap? Which ones are compatible? Are the chevy knuckles 8 lug to match the 60 rear?

Whats the cheapest and easiest route to take if I were to go with the 44 to get an 8 lug bolt pattern? What year, etc? Comparing the 44's that come with 8 lug vs the lesser bolt pattern, are any other parts on the axle stronger? ie: bigger shafts etc.

If swapping to chevy knuckles is recomended, does it even matter which 44 i get? 8 lug or not? since the knuckles will be swapped out anyway?

I tried searching as much as possible... on here and on pirate.

Thanks

[ajmorell]

Dude don't mess around....just get the 60 front.

[AgitatedPancake]

the knuckles dont determin the lug count, the only limitation on the flat tops are make sure you get the ones designed for disc brakes, disc brake brackets interfere with the knuckle if you get the wrong ones. To get 8 lug your just going to be looking into mix-n-matching spindles hubs and rotors, then making brakes work.

If your looking at 37"s now I would say try to find a 60. Easier to get in the 8 lug and once your that far into your truck, 37"s wont be enough heh.

Google Mr. N's Dana 44 and find his page for all the dana 44 info you'll ever need.

*EDIT* And there are threads going on in both General Grand Talk and Newbie Tech about changing dana 44 lug patterns. Even though the discussions are about 5 and 6 lug everything is still relevant.

[Derek33]

Thanks for the help. After hearing what you said and reading a little into Mr. N's page it appears a front 60 will save me a ton of headaches.

[ATL ZJ]

It's obvious that the strength difference is huge, but so is the weight difference. Go 60 to bring your COG back down to a reasonable height. Grands on 37s end up being way taller than is ideal.

[Derek33]

I'm starting to find alot of major differences from doing a d60 swap as compared to my 8.8/hp30.

I never really payed much attention to those talking about 1tons since I never expected to do the swap.

This would be my first time dealing with any axle of this type. I can normally figure things out a lot better when they're in front of me but selectable hubs on the internet look fuckin confusing.

What are the major difficulties i should expect getting these axles into place?

Are dana 60's worth having in the rear without upgrading to a 35 spline setup?

[ATL ZJ]

If you can't get your mind around the concept of selectable hubs, stick with what you've got. My suggestion is for every post you've made in this thread, spend an hour reading this: http://pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/60_front/ . Then you won't have to post as often. It's magic!

Yeah, 30 spline 60 rears are an upgrade, even if not by much. The 30 spline shafts are essentially the same diameter as 44 shafts. Most of the strength gain you get with the 30 spline 60 is from the fact that the axle is full float, which allows the shafts to be made out of a different material. 35 spline 60s are good, but you could go dana 70 or 14b for less $. I am not really sure you will need a 35 spline 60 with just 37s, but I am pretty confident that I could manage to break a 30 spline 60 with a 37" tire inside of a weekend if I were trying.

[Derek33]

Thanks for the help.

I understand selectable hubs, just explaining its new to me since i haven't worked on them. The internet makes them appear to have millions of parts.

[redline61]

http://77cj.littlekeylime.com/web_rs44.html Mr. N

Bill Vista is the man and has some awesome articles.
http://pirate4x4.com/tech/

[action fab]

To be honest I would forget the rear 60... I am telling you from expiriance. Enless you are going to run atleast 39's then just forget about the 60's

Having a ZJ on 60 myself I can tell you its not all its cracked up to be. I have 42's and still my diffs hang down like anchors. I would just put a rubicon 44 or waggy 44 upfront and spend the money that you would have spent on the 60 and build a kick ass 44.

If you go waggy, then through some...

Warn shafts, (They are the only way to go, all the reast will break... trust me)
CTM u-joints,
bobby long R&P,
Detroit hard lock, spool, ARB, or OX,
and eather reed racing, dedenbear or crane flat top knucks and high steer arms.
and of corse a HD cover.

If you go rubicon...

keep the stock locker and get the factory low preasure pump
go with bobby's R&P
bobby longs new rubicon longfield shafts
and a nice truss with HD brackets.
of corse a cover as well.

Oh and if you go waggy you can get 5on6.5 8.8 shats to match, and they are cheap. Also depending on which 60 you got. But most rear FF 60's are 30 spline which isnt any stronger than the 8.8 shaft. Also the pinion is no all that much bigger. So really all you gain is a bigger ring gear. Yes you can upgread to 32,35 and 40 spline shafts but it will require boring the spindle to ecsept the larger diameter shaft. And enless you can find a machine shop with the equipment to chuck up a full size axle then it will require a $720 bore tool.

So ask yourself is it really worth the time and trouble. You will have just as capable rig that is just as strong if you pollish a 44 and 8.8 and run some 37-38" tires. with the parts available today a 44 can be built stronger than a stock 60. And yes you can make 60's stronger, but look at my axles for instance. It would cost about $6500 to build another set. Where as you could build a bad F-ing ass front 44 for about $2000-$3000 and another $1000 for a super 88 kit.

here are some axle compariosons I have done.

left to right.
35spl Dana 60
30spl Dana 44
27spl dana 35
27spl dana 30
http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/2619/img0426gm0.jpg


http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3560/gearcomprl9.jpg

my .o2

[Derek33]

Thanks for your thoughts.

I have thought about upgrading my 8.8 and getting a 44 and running that size, but i would like to run an 8 lug. I was looking to run H1 beadlocks or maybe even H2's.

I think instead of getting 8.8 shafts and rotors machined to match the front axle I would probably get the wider HP 44 and get spacers for the 8.8 to match the width and change the bolt pattern.

Since i like my stance now, I'll have to find a 15" wheel with alot of backspacing to keep my current stance.

[action fab]

good luch with that... its hard to find 8 lug 15's much less with deap BS

also I am sure dutchman, mosure, or yukon would build you a set of 8 lug 8.8 shafts. or you could do a c-clip elim. and run some 9" 8 lug shafts.

[IndyZJ]

You could go with a built waggy 44 and 6 lug 8.8 shafts like action fab was saying and recenter some H1s. If you want to go with a HP44, you could narrow it to waggy width to keep it close to the width of your 8.8. Not everybody needs 60s, not for 37s anyway. Are you breaking your 30 or 8.8 now?

[ATL ZJ]

Picking axles based on your wheels is ass backward. Pick axles based on tire size. actionfab, I am with you on the idea that tons aren't for everyone and a 37" tire doesn't require a dana 60 front. But it's hard to know what the future holds. I had 31s and said I would never go bigger. I said the same thing about 35s and 37s. Everytime I went bigger. I eventually broke my chromoly 44/8.8 setup and made the jump to tons.

Lifted grand cherokees are by nature topheavy. Doesn't it make sense to counteract that by putting weight low and wide? You are building a rig on 37s so we're assuming its main purpose is for wheeling. Have you ever flopped a rig before?

[action fab]

true... he may go bigger, and if he does putting the 60's in now makes since frome a fimancial aspect. But from a real world wheeling aspect it would actualy be better to do the 44/8.8. that way he can learn to wheel on harder trails, slowly working his way up into more chalanging terrain. Also building his rig to conform to what type of trails he may be runnig. So that when the day comes for one tons and 42's he is well seasond and can hang with the dab boys. it will make you such a better driver to slowly upgread and evolve your rig onto big tires than to jump straight from 35's to lets say 40's.

[redline61]

I'm sorry but $900 for some strong cv shafts that are going to wear out (probably not break but just wear out to the point that they don't work) then after the second time he warranties them he will tell you to f off.
I agree that a 44 might be the right way for you, but don't go with a TJ 44. Find a waggy 44 and convert the rear to six lug. Then you can recenter a set of H1 wheels (which they look a lot better after you recenter them) to six lug and be on your way. If you ever decide to go the 60 route you will be able to recover a decent amount of your money.

[Sporer65]

Just to answer you original question, F-250s came with 8-lug D44s. Not sure all the years, 78-79 for sure. Also, some of the 80's models had the D50 which is a D60 size housing with a D44 carrier.

[redline61]

The 80s model D50 were the TTB style. The one tons got the solid D60. 99-01.5ish had a D50 front solid axle and they have D60 ujoints and the shafts neck down to a 30 spline and the ring gear is smaller than a D60 but larger than the D44. If you can find them for cheap they are worth buying and you could build a 609. From the inner c out they are a ball joint D60.

[redline61]

Also Chevy is going to be your best bet on finding a 8lug 44. They did not convert to ifs until the late 80s. Also Dodge and I believe International had 8lug D44s.

[jborushko]

meh...im going with a HD HP 8 lug (ha ha to fit my 14bolt FF...take it easy on me) out of a late 70ish ford, but its all set up for me even with a hydro assist ram, flat tops the works! got it for... shit 400 bones in think and that was with a dana 60 rear (but the insides on that are tore up) just needs new breaks, new gears, new hubs, then truss the thing so i can mount it up grade axle shafts as i break them... good to go taco bell style

... i've got 35s now, plan on eventually running 37 humvee wheels and tires

im just saying sometimes money counts... i got lucky with some CHEAP axle buys though, and i know what i got will work


good luck with what ever you deside
personaly i can see if you are FONT dana 60 shy - 'round here to get a front dana 60 driver side pumpkin is like 1300... too steap for me

[jborushko]

Also Chevy is going to be your best bet on finding a 8lug 44. They did not convert to ifs until the late 80s. Also Dodge and I believe International had 8lug D44s.

and diddo on the interanational 8lug d44s

[rstrucks]

The 80s model D50 were the TTB style. The one tons got the solid D60. 99-01.5ish had a D50 front solid axle and they have D60 ujoints and the shafts neck down to a 30 spline and the ring gear is smaller than a D60 but larger than the D44. If you can find them for cheap they are worth buying and you could build a 609. From the inner c out they are a ball joint D60.

I've heard a lot of people say that D50 are are the same as D60's from the "c's" out (along with "it uses D44 R and P" - not true).I've also read that's not true, that there are differences. Anybody know of a good write up on this? The brief research I did on the subject showed me a lot of people "heard" this or that but nobody really backed it up.

Sorry to get off topic. Back on - how quickly to you change your rig from one stage to the next? If you are like Maxx, then go ahead and build the 60. If it will take you a couple of years to go from 35/37's to bigger tires then build the 44 and save some ground clearance and cash. Just my .02

[Derek33]

I was planning on making this an un-timed build. My zj is my DD so whenever I work on it, i always have a deadline to get it done so i can get to school or work.

I really want to get a beater car so i can leave my jeep up on stands for a while. Sell my axles and whatnot before i start the build so i don't have to upfront as much money. Its alot easier and less stressful to work on a jeep that doesn't have to get you anywhere the next day.

1 tons are probably overkill for me, but I still really want them. Its a problem of mine. :smt100 Lol

I know its ass backwards to design my build after a wheel, I just really like the h2's. I know its frowned upon on this forum, but I try to keep my rig functional while looking good. Like i said, its my DD as well as my weekend wheeler so I don't want it to look like a beater mobile.

A couple other side notes.

Stupid questions i know.... but I'm on the forums to learn.

Im running a 242 without an sye. Is it mandatory i upgrade to an sye before swapping tons under my zj? I don't have any vibes.

Do 1 tons require new drive shafts? or is there a method to change the u-joint?

Thanks.

[AgitatedPancake]

well if you get a beater car your ZJ is no longer your DD, its your beater mobile. problem solved =D

1 tons have different u-joints. I believe they have u-joints that have different caps on both ends, so you can mix n match a ds to a different axle u joint or vice versa.

[redline61]

There are plenty of people that sell conversion u joints. Napa is one of them, along with plenty of aftermarket support. As far as drivelines the only problem you might run into is your driveshaft being too long. A lot of bigger axles have longer snouts and my last Jeep had problems with that.
I wish I had backed my last computer up before it died because I had a very good article on the D50. The ring and pinion are not the same as a D44. That is easy enough to prove. Just try finding gears for it.

[cavaliers1323]

i have a 8 lug hp 44 w/ hi-steer installed for sale! pm me

[cavaliers1323]

http://www.nagca.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34546

[Derek33]

I wish i had the money, that would be perfect!

[cLAYH]

I'm running a shaved D60 rear with 36" tires, don't notice much axle dragging. That d60 is now on its 3rd 4x4 rig that I've built. As solid as a rock, has had a welded carrier since day one(almost 8years now) and never failed or broke. Cheap and strong.

For the front I have a wide trac waggy D44 housing with Dodge 8 bolt knuckles and outers with flat tops and high steer. Here is a writeup I did a while ago on dodge D44 flat top knuckles.:

Some background, many people who want D44 front axles want flat top knuckles with a 5 on5.5 bolt pattern. Only Ford and Dodge offered 5 lug D44s(Chev and Jeep were 6 bolt). But only Chev(limited years) and Dodge offered D44 Flat top knuckles.

So you have two options, mix and match Ford parts to get what you want, or use all Dodge stuff.


'74-79 Dodges use a unit bearing style outer hub with a 5 on 4.5 lug pattern much like newer D30 axles and don't use locking hubs(was paired with a NP203 t-case). Avoid, there is no usable parts here.

1980 straight thru to 1993 is what you are looking for. ALL Dodge D44 in this year range have flat top knuckles. Use everything from the knuckles out to get a 5 on 5.5 lug pattern with disc brakes and flat top knuckles. Easily found on 1/2 trucks and Ramchargers. Use stuff from a 3/4ton truck to get an 8 bolt pattern(with flat tops) to match a regular rear D60.

This stuff can usually be picked up cheap since everyone seems to overlook the Dodge stuff.

FYI the dodge knuckles are different from a 1/2ton and 3/4ton. Brakes, calipers, seals, bearings, spindles are all the same though. Ford factory locking hubs drop right in if you get an axle with drive flanges instead of hubs. Chev spindles are also the same. Ford are different. Obviously the rotors are different from 1/2ton to 3/4ton.

[cLAYH]

BTW my rear D60 was from a mid 80s Dodge 3/4ton, it measures 65" WMS-WMS.

The wide trac waggy diff is about 63" WMS in stock form with the stock knuckles. The Dodge 8bolt stuff added about an inch to each side giving it a 65"WMS as well.

[jborushko]

Im running a 242 without an sye. Is it mandatory i upgrade to an sye before swapping tons under my zj? I don't have any vibes.

Do 1 tons require new drive shafts? or is there a method to change the u-joint?

Thanks.

sye... mandatory??? well technically no... but i would highly highly recommend it, with longer travel when you lift its IMO a must

and yes you generally will need new drive shafts, or at least get yours cut to fit correctly with a good about of travel(course thats with a SYE)

im gonna go with a YES and YES

[death-mobile]

BTW my rear D60 was from a mid 80s Dodge 3/4ton, it measures 65" WMS-WMS.

The wide trac waggy diff is about 63" WMS in stock form with the stock knuckles. The Dodge 8bolt stuff added about an inch to each side giving it a 65"WMS as well.


So dodge trucks from 80-93 is where I can find D44 front axles for my WJ, what about rear axles? Did any of those have issues with cast housings or any other issues to look out for?