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BigDaveZJ
09-30-2008, 12:20 PM
As some of you may already know, we are facing some challenges for GSW 2009. The BLM is changing the requirements on organized groups in Moab. In the past, this is why we've limited the event to < 50 rigs. The number is now changing to 25. We'd rather not limit the event to 25 rigs, so we're looking at what needs to be done to make GSW 2009 work since I don't think any of us want to give up on it.

So in the poll, please indicate your standing on additional costs for GSW. These costs are not lining the pockets of the planners at all, but going towards BLM fees, permits, and the necessary insurance that goes along with it.

Please feel free to add comments as well.

AgitatedPancake
09-30-2008, 01:25 PM
ouch, that sucks. Is there any way we can actually divide into 2 seperate groups on the trails with 25 in each? Like *technically* call one GSW 09, then call the other like GSWeXtreme or something, so one group of like intermediates and one for the more difficult trails.

I dunno just thinking out loud here, I don't really know how these things work in detail =P

*edit* I marked $100 as being the prohibitive number. I mean if I had everything else planned out and set, I bet I could pull less than $100 together to go, and I KNOW its worth it.

fpkites
09-30-2008, 01:28 PM
I'm not sure I could put a dollar amount on it. I think if we found an affordable way to do the banquet (Canyonlands By Night is a fun venue, but $$$), we could afford to go through the BLM bullshit.

Honestly, I'd go no matter what.

Pitch
09-30-2008, 02:03 PM
I'd echo the same sentiments as Jim.

Cue-Ball
09-30-2008, 02:08 PM
I agree with others. Maybe we could save some money on the banquet (not trying to start that whole debate again, trust me I heard enough when I was at GSW08) but just trying to come up with some alternatives.

I also like "splitting" the group up but like pancake said I am not sure how that really works out. I know that the only time we are a group of 50 is in the City Market parking lot and at the Banquest dinner, the rest of the time we are scattered about, so maybe it is not as big of an issue???

fpkites
09-30-2008, 02:16 PM
We rarely, if ever have 25 people on any one trail...in fact, never. As Dirk said, there can be up to 50 rigs at CM or the banquet. That's it.

Cue-Ball
09-30-2008, 02:18 PM
And those places are not governed by BLM

Z
09-30-2008, 02:30 PM
Guys - we've discussed all these options in the Organizer's forum. We are trying to find ways around or through this, but it is a distinct possibility that one way or another you'll have to pay money for GSW 2009. Quite frankly, we're trying to determine at what price point will we have to cancel future Grand Slam Wests because people can't/won't afford to attend.

You can thank the eco-weenies for these policies. They are trying to strangle us off our own land.

Cody
09-30-2008, 03:21 PM
It's not the amount of people on each particular trail, it's the number of rigs in the "organized" group.

Also, keep in mind that this would need to be paid weeks if not months in advance.

ATL ZJ
09-30-2008, 03:25 PM
Guys - we've discussed all these options in the Organizer's forum. We are trying to find ways around or through this, but it is a distinct possibility that one way or another you'll have to pay money for GSW 2009. Quite frankly, we're trying to determine at what price point will we have to cancel future Grand Slam Wests because people can't/won't afford to attend.

You can thank the eco-weenies for these policies. They are trying to strangle us off our own land.

Well the way to figure out how much people will pay is to post the actual price and see what price the market will bear. Obviously as price rises demand decreases. I'm confused about the ambiguity of the additional fee. How much more is it going to cost if you have two groups? Why is there a poll? Are you in cohorts with the BLM to set said fee? Or are you just considering scaling down the banquet/tshirts/extras? ...Just trying to understand what's going on behind the curtain.

As a somewhat objective 3rd party (never have attended GSW but have considered it) these are just a few observations. While I'm very glad that we don't have to comply with as strict of rules in this part of the country, it seems that a shrug-and-accept-the-worst attitude gets taken with this event. Surely there is a creative answer to this issue that would allow everyone who wants to attend still come.

All of that said, people pay record-high fuel prices to go to GSW from the east coast. On the other hand, I bet there is someone in SLC that wouldn't even cough up an extra $10 to go. The magic number will be different for everyone.

BTW, what's the reason that 2 groups won't work? Just call one "organized" group City Empires and the other GSW

CrawlerReady
09-30-2008, 03:30 PM
Just curious....does anyone know how the "Blazer Bash" works? I've been the last 2 years with them and I didn't think they got a permit or anything? They usually have more attendees than GSW does from what I have seen... I guess I'm just wondering if anyone knows what they do because they seem to have a good system... Thinking out loud here

fpkites
09-30-2008, 03:59 PM
It's not the amount of people on each particular trail, it's the number of rigs in the "organized" group.

Also, keep in mind that this would need to be paid weeks if not months in advance.

Thanks for the clarification Cody

Cody
09-30-2008, 04:04 PM
atl ZJ, we would love to tell you the price, but the price would be somewhat dependent on how many rigs. the more rigs, the less expensive per rig. I believe BLM permits would be about $15, and the required insurance policy would be a fixed cost for the most part and divided by the number of registrants. so, the best we can really say at this point is somewhere between $50 and $100.


don't even get me started on the splitting of the two groups. Trust me, it's not an original idea and has been/is being addressed.

froggo27
09-30-2008, 07:37 PM
I'd go either way......can i register now so i can be the first 25 to go? :D

ArloGuthroJeep
10-01-2008, 11:00 AM
I'm confused about the ambiguity of the additional fee. How much more is it going to cost if you have two groups? Why is there a poll? Are you in cohorts with the BLM to set said fee? Or are you just considering scaling down the banquet/tshirts/extras? ...Just trying to understand what's going on behind the curtain.


There are 2 sets of fee's here. The first is by the BLM for using the (our own) land. It is $5/day/vehicle. So $15 more-or-less. The second is what is required to get the BLM permit. We need insurance. While the insurance provider can't give us a hard number quote this early in the game, it will be over a grand if 40 vehicles show up.

This is in no relation to the banquet/tshirts/extras. The banquet/t-shirts have always been extra money, and the "extras" (give-aways at the banquet) has always been free.

fpkites
10-01-2008, 11:18 AM
Gotta love our litigious society - pretty soon you'll have to have insurance to pinch a loaf in a public crapper :pissed:

CrawlerReady
10-01-2008, 11:39 AM
So nobody knows how "Blazer Bash" works? Because I'm pretty certain they don't pay fees, and highly doubtful that they don't get the "insurance" or whatever.....

I'll talk to my buddy later today that knows more about the Blazer Bash, I recall him saying it's a free event and I know more than 50 rigs showed up last year.

fpkites
10-01-2008, 11:45 AM
It's my understanding that BLM put the permit rules into effect around the end of June 2008.

CrawlerReady
10-01-2008, 12:26 PM
I thought there were always permit rules if you had 50+ rigs and this year they dropped it to 25? Either way Blazer Bash happens in Aug-Sept each year and both '07 and '08 had 50+ rigs. I'm just curious as to how they do it (whether they get permits or what), because it seems like everyone is happy and it works out well.

Cody
10-01-2008, 12:43 PM
well, I'm sure they just hope that the BLM won't say anything, which is a pretty easy thing to do.

We want to do things the right way, but we're trying to find the best and most logical 'right' way to handle things. Just because Blazer Bash gets away outside the system, as well as countless other organized groups (JU, PL4x4, RME, U4, Primedia--just to name a few that don't bother) doesn't mean it's right.

ZJ TINS
10-01-2008, 01:38 PM
Cory et al thanks for all the free support and time you all give, and will give.

I'll pay whatever to go once a year just to keep my sanity. 1 day of travel costs me >$100 bucks, $100 more painful but the price you pay.
Aside which I still have to give Kevin hell about his transfer case skid! (he he) That alone is worth $100.

2 thoughts, you said you discussed the 2 groups idea. What exactly is the problem with this? Usually it's easier to bend the rules than change the rules. If we could get the exact language we may find a loophole, I might be able to get lawyer to look at this if the pertinent part is short (less than a page). I am talking a high powered corporate screw-you-into-the-ground peckerwood lawyer.

Group is a loose term which defies definition. We might look at literally two names to separate us (GSW: north and south, blue and gray, hi and low, DD and extreme).
Legally the right way is whatever works and doesn’t land you in jail (I did not say moral). Play the game to win.

I am not rich, and one son is in college, but some of us are more equal than others.

One thought is get a list of students or other who can't afford it and some of the rest of us pay a higher share. I am willing. I would rather pay a little more and get people there who love doing this than reducing the (real) group.
Question: does this mean if we have to pay anyway the 50 cap is off?

ZJ TINS
10-01-2008, 02:04 PM
OK officially the UTAH BLM website SUKS. I cannot find frackin anything!!!

fpkites
10-01-2008, 02:06 PM
I'm honestly surprised anybody can find anything at all on that POS.

ArloGuthroJeep
10-01-2008, 02:10 PM
Question: does this mean if we have to pay anyway the 50 cap is off?[/COLOR]

Ignoring the 50 cap, even the past couple years 50 people haven't been showing up. So with gas prices continue to be higher and higher each summer, I think fewer and fewer people will show up regardless of the 50 cap.

CrawlerReady
10-01-2008, 02:11 PM
well, I'm sure they just hope that the BLM won't say anything, which is a pretty easy thing to do.

We want to do things the right way, but we're trying to find the best and most logical 'right' way to handle things. Just because Blazer Bash gets away outside the system, as well as countless other organized groups (JU, PL4x4, RME, U4, Primedia--just to name a few that don't bother) doesn't mean it's right.

Gotcha...I was wondering if that's what they did. In no way was I saying we should do that as well....my mom always said "two wrongs don't make a right!" ;) I'm down to pay for GSW, last year was a ton of fun and I plan on going for years to come!

Matt
10-01-2008, 06:59 PM
Colorado is free. :)

50-100 I think is reasonable, but if it's over 100 I wouldn't think you'd need to worry about more than 25 rigs showing up. Who knows what gas prices will be at that time next year.

K2
10-01-2008, 10:13 PM
Ignoring the 50 cap, even the past couple years 50 people haven't been showing up. So with gas prices continue to be higher and higher each summer, I think fewer and fewer people will show up regardless of the 50 cap.

Not getting 50 rigs may have something to do with the limit and a feeling you cant go. I know we allow more than 50 to register. However nearing the 50 and beyond, people may feel they wont get in and dont sign up. They may not want to go through the trouble of making reservations, or getting time off from work, just to cancel them. Especially considering you need 14 people to drop out to go yourself. Not good odds. If there were no cap, I would bet we would go over 50. There were 64 registered last year and we had like 42-46? I am guessing the percentage of registered to attendees would go down, but that wouldn't matter if we paid and we allowed more people.

ArloGuthroJeep
10-01-2008, 10:38 PM
64 registered, 42 confirmed, and I bet even less then 42 showed up. Plenty of room left. If they were on the fence about "well there are close to 50 so screw it" then add on another fee and no way they'll show up. The fact that there is a limit encourages you to do it sooner rather the later IMHO...

Now if there is a $60 fee for instance, but unlimited people, not only will the fee discourage people, but you have to sign up far in advance (no signing up 2 weeks beforehand) because of the insurance work. So no more people who are "scrambling to get it finished up until the last moment but aren't sure" unless they want to risk the $60.

fpkites
10-01-2008, 11:18 PM
$60 wouldn't be an issue to me as long as we don't have the $60+ for banquet...I think that would be a deal-breaker (possibly) for me. I guess you could put me in the $100 limit club. I would truly hate having to miss the full group get-together because of the cost.

After having attended 2 GSW events, I'm fairly positive that I and my family will be attending for as long as the group can do it. The first 2 years were a helluva lot of learning for us, and now it's becoming a reunion of sorts...not often that you can meet up with as good of friends as we do at these events.

Bottom line, I would have (minimal) problem with some minor fees so that we can get together and do what we love. Permits and insurance? Great...Let's try and figure out how to do a banquet so that there is minimal cost to the participants, and even less work for the organizers so that they can enjoy it with us!

K2
10-02-2008, 12:33 AM
The fact that there is a limit encourages you to do it sooner rather the later IMHO...

Yes. So anyone who is unable to give a commitment sooner, but very well could commit later will be discouraged. I missed 2 GSWs because I had to travel for work. I was sent out on a Sunday for one, and the other I was returning on a Friday (which could be a Wednesday or Saturday, who knows). So I know I was discouraged to sign up because I knew with my job I couldn't commit early.


Now if there is a $60 fee for instance, but unlimited people, not only will the fee discourage people, but you have to sign up far in advance (no signing up 2 weeks beforehand) because of the insurance work. So no more people who are "scrambling to get it finished up until the last moment but aren't sure" unless they want to risk the $60.

I was pointing out there being no limit more people would show. But I do agree if you need to pay so far in advance there will be less people. Again referring to what I wrote above. I know my dad bought plane tickets 6 weeks in advance, so we were going. I also there were people who decided to show at the last minute. That is the way most events will be.

ZJ TINS
10-07-2008, 12:42 PM
Gas from Iowa to MOAB and back, around $500.
Room and board for 8 days, around $800.
Insurance around $100

Crawling around Moab, ---Priceless

Naturalhoosier
10-07-2008, 09:58 PM
Are there any dates lined up for GSW2009?

Sandy R
10-09-2008, 08:35 AM
Are there any dates lined up for GSW2009?

June 5-7, 2009 pending our being able to work through new BLM requirements for permits, fees and insurance which would impose a cost on participants for the first time in our history. We wil keep this site updated as we determine if and how GSW plays out in 2009.

Naturalhoosier
10-09-2008, 08:39 PM
June 5-7, 2009 pending our being able to work through new BLM requirements for permits, fees and insurance which would impose a cost on participants for the first time in our history. We wil keep this site updated as we determine if and how GSW plays out in 2009.


Excellent. Thanks!!!! I'm definitely excited to go!!

Dominic
10-21-2008, 04:31 PM
I have had a good time the last couple years for free I wouldn't mind paying a entrance fee of $100-$200 and now that I am a Zj owner I can fully participate! Can't wait.

CrawlerReady
10-21-2008, 06:18 PM
I have had a good time the last couple years for free I wouldn't mind paying a entrance fee of $100-$200 and now that I am a Zj owner I can fully participate! Can't wait.

DOM!!! You're first post! Let's go drink to that :drinkers:

MoonWorks
10-22-2008, 12:02 AM
So, I'll ask the ignorant question of...

What is the "insurance" for. What and who is it covering? Is it insurance for the land that's damaged with "what we do"? Covering someone that's injured at Moab? Or covering the "owners" of the land from getting sued from the asshat that got hurt at Moab and wanted to blame the owners?

I've never been to Moab before and don't know how they operate. Like ATL mentioned earlier...we don't have to deal with this crap (yet) on the east coast which is why i'm asking. I'd love to make it out there but with gas prices, life itself (lol) and extra crap like this coming up, it'll only make it harder.

Sandy R
10-22-2008, 01:59 AM
Good question! The insurance protects the BLM (Bureau of Land Management) against claims for the reasons you mentioned in your question.


So, I'll ask the ignorant question of...

What is the "insurance" for. What and who is it covering? Is it insurance for the land that's damaged with "what we do"? Covering someone that's injured at Moab? Or covering the "owners" of the land from getting sued from the asshat that got hurt at Moab and wanted to blame the owners?

I've never been to Moab before and don't know how they operate. Like ATL mentioned earlier...we don't have to deal with this crap (yet) on the east coast which is why i'm asking. I'd love to make it out there but with gas prices, life itself (lol) and extra crap like this coming up, it'll only make it harder.

ZJ TINS
10-22-2008, 09:20 AM
Yup we sign a waiver saying we cant sue and pay insurance for them any way ... can we say deep pockets???

Questions raised last year, Pizza in the park instead of the banquet in attempt to stave of some cost? I like the banquet but the more things change...

Or what about the back room of the bar we go to, they seat at least 30 or so I just wonder if they would rope off the some area for 50-70 (with familes). Also the mexican place, maybe.

Just thinking out loud.

93ZeeJ
10-28-2008, 01:08 PM
i have never attended GSW and really wanted to make it out for '09.

i think $100 would be my limit

Mochisme
01-17-2009, 01:42 PM
I love the Moab area, but have never Been wheeling there (YET!) and until a couple of months ago had never heard of Grand Slams.

I will make every effort to attend GSW in 2009 regardless of the cost which I know the people working on this will control to the best of their abilities.

The sooner a date(s) is firmed up, the sooner I can pay and make my plans for being there.

Thanks to all involved in planning this event, it is hard work and appreciated even if it does not always show in the comments here.

Sandy R
01-17-2009, 01:57 PM
The sooner a date(s) is firmed up, the sooner I can pay and make my plans for being there.

Costs are not yet determined and the event is not yet set in stone but the dates are June 5-7 for planning purposes.

ArloGuthroJeep
01-17-2009, 04:54 PM
Well, 5-6th technically since Sunday is going to be a non-offical day (or that is the current plan I believe).

Sandy R
01-17-2009, 08:37 PM
Well, 5-6th technically since Sunday is going to be a non-offical day (or that is the current plan I believe).

or it won't be on BLM land.

Ted_Z
01-19-2009, 11:55 AM
GSW is my "Man trip". While I'm not made of money, a weekend wheeling in Moab is priceless. My cash flow is tight this year with a baby due in March, but so long as I know the final amount a couple months in advance I can budget for it.

Sandy R
01-19-2009, 01:56 PM
GSW is my "Man trip". While I'm not made of money, a weekend wheeling in Moab is priceless. My cash flow is tight this year with a baby due in March, but so long as I know the final amount a couple months in advance I can budget for it.

We do not have final numbers yet but we're talking less than $100, hopefully much less. But we are not yet in a position to promise less or set fees until we know exactly how many agencies and organizations we need to pay for insurance and use fees. If you budget $100 it should be more than enough to cover with pitchers to spare.

ZJ TINS
01-19-2009, 02:00 PM
Any word on the banquet? Seems like last year it was getting very expensive for what we got, but I understand it still may be the only choice. For the younger crowd or those with families a different venue (keep hearing about pizza in the park) could save some big bucks.

You guys probably know better this I but found this link:

http://www.moabutah.info/convention.htm

CrawlerReady
01-19-2009, 02:32 PM
Personally I think pizza (or the likewise) at the park would be great! I attended Blazer Bash for the past few years and that is what they did as well, many families/children attended and it turn out to be a good time. I'm willing to put in any volunteer work myself to help out.

Mochisme
01-20-2009, 12:06 AM
Costs are not yet determined and the event is not yet set in stone but the dates are June 5-7 for planning purposes.

Planning is the plan! I just completed making reservations for a room in Moab, UT for four nights (June 4 through the 8th :supz:), so I will be there for sure. Now the question I have to deal with (Assuming the dates do not change) is which Grand Cherokee will I show up with? (Maybe both)

black_zj
01-21-2009, 07:39 PM
Are these the only dates they could think of? I was in Moab back in June for the Summer Solstice and it was so freakin hot it was hard to enjoy it!! I'll be there for Spring Break for sure though.

BigDaveZJ
01-21-2009, 08:11 PM
Considering GSW is a family event, we try to make it so that kids (whether college/high school age, or the drivers' kids, also one of the planners is a teacher) who are in school can attend too. It's historically been the same weekend as Father's Day which is usually a week or two later and even hotter. Last year the weather was pretty much perfect just a week earlier. If you'd like to offer your time to help plan the event and help us make decisions such as when the event is held, handling permits and insurance, deciding trails, leading trails, banquet planning, soliciting sponsors for raffle donations, etc etc etc we welcome pretty much all the help we can get.

fpkites
01-21-2009, 09:10 PM
Last year's weather was just about perfect - 2007 was hotter than shit, and that was father's day weekend. It seems that just one week can separate the great weather and hell on rocks :D

CrawlerReady
01-21-2009, 09:51 PM
Yeah I agree, last years weather was perfect!

black_zj
01-21-2009, 10:24 PM
If gas prices stay below $2 a gallon, I'm sure a lot more people will be showing up. The idea of splitting the group up might work the best. I haven't attended a GSW yet, but living in Colorado and now Utah provides me and other local guys with more flexibility to pick and choose to go when we want. I personally like smaller groups better. I have made enough contacts down there and have a few places to sleep, get welding if needed, and even a flatbed for towing if I break down. I would love to get to GSW, but when will you guys have a final cost number?

WestexZJ
02-08-2009, 01:49 AM
Last year's weather was just about perfect - 2007 was hotter than shit, and that was father's day weekend. It seems that just one week can separate the great weather and hell on rocks :D

2007 was hotter than hell. Although Hunter saw it hotter last summer where he was. I think Arlo has a pic of his thermometer at 108 or something like that.

Sandy R
02-08-2009, 03:49 AM
I would love to get to GSW, but when will you guys have a final cost number?

It will be approximately $30 per vehicle/driver to cover insurance and BLM daily permit fees for June 5-6. Registration details will be announced soon with exact details and costs.

ZJ TINS
02-08-2009, 11:19 AM
Cool thanks guys. With gas so much lower (for me) this will be much cheaper this year.
I for one really appreciate all the hard work and long hours by everyone to make this continue to happen year in and year our.

3 cheers for the planning committee and sponsors!

ArloGuthroJeep
02-08-2009, 03:44 PM
Cool thanks guys. With gas so much lower (for me) this will be much cheaper this year.
I for one really appreciate all the hard work and long hours by everyone to make this continue to happen year in and year our.

3 cheers for the planning committee and sponsors!


Lets just hope it doesn't go up again rapidly this summer like it normally does. It has already gone up over 50 cents per gallon here in Colorado since this winters low:(

SCAMPER ZJ
02-08-2009, 09:53 PM
As others have pointed out, most spend hundreds/thousands to get their rigs ready and get them out to and back from Moab. Of course budgets are tight - but I doubt the $50-$100 would keep anyone who was really planning on going from going. . .

I do think "pizza in the park" would be a great way to trim costs some. I think it's a little easier to socialize in that setting anyway. If it's not raining, we can do vollyball, throw a football/frisbee, etc.

Not that I'm pleased about the limitations being placed on our access to public lands. Heaven knows we already pay too many taxes and fees as it is (and it really disgusts me when interest groups lobby successfully for fees to make things prohibitive or to "punish" citizens / change their behavior).

I have marked off June 5-7 on my calendar.

ZJ TINS
02-10-2009, 11:54 PM
PLEASE NOTE: Alcohol is prohibited in all Moab parks, just in case that changes anyone's mind.

WestexZJ
02-11-2009, 02:54 AM
Lets just hope it doesn't go up again rapidly this summer like it normally does. It has already gone up over 50 cents per gallon here in Colorado since this winters low:(

Arlo, a lot will depend on if there is a refrinery workers strike. If they strike you will see a very strange phenomenon, crude prices will sink, and gasoline prices will skyrocket.