Long Arm Engine/Tranny Skids

[SirFuego]

Maybe I've missed something, but of the people running long arms, I have yet to come across someone running a tranny skid.

The only tranny skid I know of for the ZJ is the skid row skid (which I currently have). However, it mounts to the crossmember and stock LCA mounts. Of course this won't work with Clayton's since the LCA mounts are cut off.

Has anyone made an engine skid that does not use LCA mounts?

Has modified the skid row skid or fabbed up their own to work with Clayton's (or any long arm setup)?

Will an engine skid even work, or does the radius arm setup interfere with it (Clayton's isn't on my ZJ just yet so I can't just "look under" the ZJ to figure it out)?

[jsteves]

For the most part I just run along the LCA's now. I have not had problems with hitting the tranny since the Clayton's went in 3 years ago.

[SirFuego]

Thanks! I knew the control arms would help to protect it. But it's still exposed, so I wasn't sure how much they would help.

So then I guess the next logical question to ask is has anyone found a need for an engine skid with long arms?

[5.9 ANDY]

well, think about this, what is the part that is part on the bottom part of the tranny that is most prone to being smashed???

the tranny pan.....so why not build a HD tranny pan???

[ILikeMud]

Claytons makes a belly skid now.

[SirFuego]

well, think about this, what is the part that is part on the bottom part of the tranny that is most prone to being smashed???

the tranny pan.....so why not build a HD tranny pan???
That is a possibility. But something that doesn't apply a force to the tranny when hit would be nicer. I'm just mainly asking about how to mount such a skid since you can't use the LCA mounts.


Claytons makes a belly skid now.
I know. I just ordered one. I am referring to a skid for the stuff in front of the front crossmember...

[zj95maxx]

Don't think those long arms will always save your tranny pan.
http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v158/145/6/657390617/n657390617_1764819_926.jpg


:smt088:smt088:smt088

[ILikeMud]

Also, building an HD trans pan could be a bitch.
Just plating the bottom won't help because the sides will still be the weaker metal.

[SirFuego]

Just an update -- mainly for those searching in the future.

Front Clayton's long arms w/ 4.5" springs went on yesterday and it was immediately apparent that the skid row engine skid would have interfered with the radius arm setup up front. The skid row skid was just too large and would have needed to be cut up to fit. So the idea of modifying/fabbing new bracketry was sorta thrown out the window. Instead I'm selling it locally to make some money back and am hoping to figure out something custom once everything is back in.

[canadian_driver]

nth degree used to make a tranny pan skid that didnt attach to the control arm mount, i think its made by warn now or something

[5.9 ANDY]

Also, building an HD trans pan could be a bitch.
Just plating the bottom won't help because the sides will still be the weaker metal.

i was speaking about building/fabracating a pan.... it should not be that hard.... i am gona get started on one when i get the $$$ to buy all the steel i need for a BUNCH of stuff, but the HD pan is one of the things on the list.

obviously the pan is not designed to have the entire rig to drop onto and support the weight, but to be able to take some scrapes and light hits.

[ILikeMud]

i was speaking about building/fabracating a pan.... it should not be that hard.... i am gona get started on one when i get the $$$ to buy all the steel i need for a BUNCH of stuff, but the HD pan is one of the things on the list.

obviously the pan is not designed to have the entire rig to drop onto and support the weight, but to be able to take some scrapes and light hits.

Why bother.
Build a nice skid plate and don't worry about it.

[5.9 ANDY]

yea, i guess you could realy go either way with it.

obviously the full skid would be better.

[ILikeMud]

A lot better imo.
Maybe easier too.

[piku303]

i was thinking about this last night in bed. if somebody wanted to spend some cash, the best solution would be to suspend a skid plate between the two arms connected by some kind of flexible joints on each side.

[5.9 ANDY]

i was thinking about this last night in bed. if somebody wanted to spend some cash, the best solution would be to suspend a skid plate between the two arms connected by some kind of flexible joints on each side.

those would have to be some REALY flexable joints, think about it, you want to attach a pice of steel from one control arm to another one of the opposite side, what is it gona do at full flex?

i dont think it could be done, but hey...keep thinking.

[SirFuego]

I would think a more realistic option would be a narrow skid that protects the oil/tranny pans. It would mount to the tranny crossmember and have two supports that clear the LA's on both sides and ties directly into the subframe (or possibly to a motor mount or something solid in the engine compartment. Not entirely sure on this, but a quick glance makes it seem like an option. I'll find out once it gets flexed out to see the clearance issues.

[5.9 ANDY]

I would think a more realistic option would be a narrow skid that protects the oil/tranny pans. It would mount to the front crossmember and have two supports that clear the LA's on both sides and ties directly into the subframe (or possibly to a motor mount or something solid in the engine compartment. Not entirely sure on this, but a quick glance makes it seem like an option. I'll find out once it gets flexed out to see the clearance issues.

thats the only problem i see, because the when yoy get flexed, the axle is gona come up and smash it, or your gona have to design it so it goes WAY up and over and around the axle.

the idea of tireing it into the motor mounts is good, it will have to be designed to fit REALY tight around the whole engine/tranny combo, due to the movement range of the LA's, and for the oil pan, especialy close, there are even some D30 trusses that crush the oil pan when fully flexed.

[piku303]

those would have to be some REALY flexable joints, think about it, you want to attach a pice of steel from one control arm to another one of the opposite side, what is it gona do at full flex?

i dont think it could be done, but hey...keep thinking.

anybody got any ideas on how it could be done??

[SirFuego]

thats the only problem i see, because the when yoy get flexed, the axle is gona come up and smash it, or your gona have to design it so it goes WAY up and over and around the axle.
Sorry, that was a typo. I meant the tranny crossmember. I edited my previous post to reflect that.

[novacayne75]

easy 2 arms going up to old upper control arm mounts and rear going to trans crossmember .(thats what im doing):cool:

[ILikeMud]

Why all the focus on an engine skid?
I never had a problem hitting any part of my engine with the old ZJ when on the trail. Maybe I wasn't wheeling enough rock or not wheeling hard enough.
OR is this more of an in case shit happens sort of thing? That I can totally understand.

Anyone upgrading to Clayton's owes into themselves and their trans/t-case to buy the belly skid that Clayton now sells. It's a huge gain in ground clearance.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/zj95/claytons/100_0195.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/zj95/claytons/100_0184.jpg
More pics in ZJ95's build thread: http://www.mallcrawlin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9632&page=9

My t-case on my stock truck hangs down 5-6" below the frame rail. The Clayton's belly skid appears to hang down 1-2", HUGE improvement.

[novacayne75]

nice .....bet that added a few pounds

[SirFuego]

easy 2 arms going up to old upper control arm mounts and rear going to trans crossmember .(thats what im doing):cool:
Thanks I'll look into it. My UCA body mounts probably aren't in too good of condition now -- but for an engine skid they might work.


Why all the focus on an engine skid?
Because the stock gas tank skid is sufficient (for me at least) and as you just posted, there is already a belly skid out there for Clayton's. So that leaves the oil/tranny pan exposed. It's less likely to get hit than with short arms, but it's still exposed. I'll send you pics later of what my skid row engine skid looks like and let you figure out why I was asking about this :)

[SirFuego]

My tranny pan has a nice dent in it, but luckily it's not leaking.

Any vendors planning to make these? I'd definitely be interested in what you can come up with...

[slim616]

Mine also has a small dink in it. I'm also going to start looking into doing something with mine over the winter.

[FortCollinsZJ]

I have been thinking of this for a while now, and have come up with an idea to potentially solve the issue.

The skid plate frame will be 1.5" OD tube, the plate will be 1/4", the support arm will be 1" OD tube and the angle tab will reach up to the drivers side stock upper control arm mount on the frame, the only clearence issue will be driveshaft then, at full stuff, things get close. I wll see how well this will work, but currently it looks very plausible, only one support arm can be used though, the exhaust blocks the passenger side, this skid will also ony work with a radious arm setup, or a three link with the upper on the passenger side.

I am trying to make this setup bolt to any 2X4" crossmember ( stock or Claytons)

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa231/NEILZJ/Sketch-up%20Drawings/Transmissionskid.jpg

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa231/NEILZJ/Sketch-up%20Drawings/skid2.jpg

[SirFuego]

I am trying to make this setup bolt to any 2X4" crossmember ( stock or Claytons)

That looks great! I would definitely be interested in it should it come into fruition.

Now this is probably being a bit greedy on my end, but I would also suggest making it compatible with Clayton's belly skid. There are good pics on Clayton's website, but it mounts to the crossmember and also sticks out past the front of it. I don't think this will pose a problem, but I'm just throwing it out there since it seems more and more folks are running this skid.

[FortCollinsZJ]

It looks to me like there isn't a good strong way arround it, it would require cutting the lip off of claytons skid plate, or possibly just cutting part of the lip off, maybe just the center 14" or so and leaving the sides of the lip closest to the JJ's.

[slim616]

okay after looking at the under side of my jeep, what you have above would not even come close to working for my application. Right now i have TC skid that is 3/8" thick that is bent from me comming down on it. So one support arm is not an option. I also have a RE front LA bracket so Im not in the norm with everyone who has claytons front crossmember. After looking what I have the best option would be to bolt the rear of the skid to the RE x-member and run the skid in between the exust pipe (I have a 5.2)and oil pan. This would give protection all the way from the tranny x-member to the front of the oil pan. then to support the front of the skid I would run a support the goes down and around the oil pan from one side of the rail to the other. This spot would be about were the old lower CA were welded up to the frame. Then in the middle I would have a spacer that would bolt to the front of the tranny with the tranny pan bolts to give the middle of the tranny skid support if you were to come down square in the middle of it. To protect the exuast pipe i would bolt some Box steel with the top cut out of it around the pipe.

I'm sorry if this doesn't make much sense with the way I'm explaining it but i'm going to try to fab it up in the next few weeks and get some pics which should help with my description.

[zj95maxx]

okay after looking at the under side of my jeep, what you have above would not even come close to working for my application. Right now i have TC skid that is 3/8" thick that is bent from me comming down on it. So one support arm is not an option. I also have a RE front LA bracket so Im not in the norm with everyone who has claytons front crossmember. After looking what I have the best option would be to bolt the rear of the skid to the RE x-member and run the skid in between the exust pipe (I have a 5.2)and oil pan. This would give protection all the way from the tranny x-member to the front of the oil pan. then to support the front of the skid I would run a support the goes down and around the oil pan from one side of the rail to the other. This spot would be about were the old lower CA were welded up to the frame. Then in the middle I would have a spacer that would bolt to the front of the tranny with the tranny pan bolts to give the middle of the tranny skid support if you were to come down square in the middle of it. To protect the exuast pipe i would bolt some Box steel with the top cut out of it around the pipe.

I'm sorry if this doesn't make much sense with the way I'm explaining it but i'm going to try to fab it up in the next few weeks and get some pics which should help with my description.


How big was your section of 3/8? was it supported on the top?

[FortCollinsZJ]

I can bend 3/8" steel plate with a long wrench in a vice, go try that with .188 wall DOM tube, come tell us when you get tired.


EDIT: I also thought about a spacer from the skid to the front edge of the tranny pan, bit if I ever do land on the skid hard enough to move it up, I REALLY don't want a spacer puncing a hole into the aluminum tranny, also the spacer would obviously need a bushing, so as to not hard mount it.

[slim616]

I can bend 3/8" steel plate with a long wrench in a vice, go try that with .188 wall DOM tube, come tell us when you get tired.


EDIT: I also thought about a spacer from the skid to the front edge of the tranny pan, bit if I ever do land on the skid hard enough to move it up, I REALLY don't want a spacer puncing a hole into the aluminum tranny, also the spacer would obviously need a bushing, so as to not hard mount it.

Hmmm, a long wrench and a 5000# jeep are two different things. Trust me when I say if you drop 5000# on a small spot of 1.88 wall DOM tube that it will bend. Plus, Is the entire skid made of this? No its not, so what happens to the 1/4" plate with one support when I come off a 2' drop with 5000# plus velocity right on it?


As for punching a hole in the tranny, I'm talking about the edge of the tranny not the center of the pan. So basically your just mounting something to keep the skid from bending into the tran that would be a seperate part from the skid.

I forgot who said this but the quote went "give me a big enough lever and I can move the world" So yes you could bend any amount of steel in a vice:)

[slim616]

How big was your section of 3/8? was it supported on the top?

It was supported all the way across from my RE x-member which was also bent up.

[FortCollinsZJ]

I think 1/4" will be plenty when welded to the the tube frame in a fashion that it would have to stretch the skid to dent it, I think a skid like this will work for 90% of us that dont wheel like we are in buggys, not saying I would wheel like a girl with this skid, but just somewhat carefull, and it is obviously better than the options that are currently out there. AKA none for a LA setup!

Also, I don't expect 1/4" to hold up that well, BUT with 1/2" UHMW I would expect the skid to take ALOT of abuse. I wont use any UHMW thinner that .5" for fear of cracking under such a heavy rig.

[FortCollinsZJ]

Ok, so here is a pic of the other option of whats out there, makes my idea seem like it's built for a tank, ths loop deal over the DS doesnt seem strong at all.

http://www.quadratec.com/Assets/Images/52215/52215-add1-lg.jpg

[SirFuego]

Neil, the Skid Row engine skid uses that bracket. I ran it before I went long arms and it held up quite well. Running black trails on 31s, it took a lot of abuse.

The skid itself ran underneath the passenger side exaust and mounted to the stock LCA bolt (which obviously isn't an option for the long arm folk). That bracket went around the driveshaft to the other stock LCA bolt. Of course it mounted to the crossmember, too. So perhaps that bracket was strong enough because it was also supported on the other side. I don't know...

[canadian_driver]

but with that one it looks like you could mount it to the upper control arm mount. also looks like it might serve dual purpose and work as a drive shaft loop if designed properly. just a thought

[FortCollinsZJ]

Thats all I'm saying, the skid row skid uses the support braces to the lower CA taps, a STRAIGHT support to the upper CA mount seems stronger to me VS the loop, even if there is just one, the skid row skid holds up well as you said, but I think the new idea may hold up to more abuse.

[FortCollinsZJ]

Well, I did a little more poking around under the jeep, and took a few measurements, also put a piece of tube in above the driveshaft and created a "full stuff" scenario to check for clearance.

Design had to change after looking at that. I had plans of making the skid only reach to the front of the trans pan, now it will be a bit longer. I bent a piece of conduit to reach between the two UCA mounts, and it clears everything, although the exhaust is close, the DS is far from being close. Looking at an I6 ZJ, I realized this plan will only fit a 5.2, exhaust on the 4.0 is wack. :D

Thankfully my brother has an I6 ZJ so I may build a sepertate skid for his, different than my own.

So now the skid will be a two piece design, and certainly much stronger with the two support arms.

I am planning for 1.5" 120 wall DOM, maybe thicker, but likely to stick with .120

Pictures:

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa231/NEILZJ/Sketch-up%20Drawings/Newskid.jpg

[zj95maxx]

Not everyone has the exact same exhaust routing. That gunna be a probl;em?

[FortCollinsZJ]

Good point Maxx, I would guess that some ZJ's aftermarket exhaust may have clerance issues, but to design a skid around every possible exhaust scenario would be impossible, I just want something to work with A: long arms and B: stock exhaust, because I would guess that is what most are running (at least stock from the cat-forward)

Ther is a 4" gap betwen the exhaust and the engine on the passenger side, the tube brace is only 1.5" so that ads some leway.

I cycled the suspension agian looking at the minimal amount of space and I really think the last design is the keeper, although the L tabs will sit just forward of the UCA mounts by about 4", and a hole will have to be drilled into the unibody frame for a self tapping bolt, ther is a nice clean section of unibody rail on either side perfect for mounting the crossbar, but luckily that piece wont need to be removed to access anything, just unbolt the skid piece to acces trans pan ETC.

I'm going to just quit post whoring now and get to work. I will post up some results after bending the tube crossmember and see how it fits.

[slim616]

That new design looks whole lot better. How much coverage of oil pan will the new design cover?

[FortCollinsZJ]

Thank you Slim.

As fas as oil pan coverage, I planned for it to extend to just behind the exhaust, like picture in this colorful CAD. :D covering only the back section of oilpan for the V8.

Green is driveline, white is front axle, orange is exhaust, and the grey is obviously the skid and crossbar, the red is a possible idea, extending the skid to right behind the front axle, go take a look under your Jeep and tell me what looks best to you, things are alot different once you are under there, the skid would have to sit alot lower to clear the exaust and full oilpan.

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa231/NEILZJ/Sketch-up%20Drawings/dfg.jpg

[SirFuego]

Is the metal plating going to be inset in the tube like the sketchup drawing shows? I would think it would be better to have it go below the tubing so it's a smooth surface to slide on.

From a production standpoint, would it be easier to just bend the tube for the front supports, then notch out straight tubing and weld it to the supports -- rather than having to create that halo and welding the tubes on top of each other?

As for the red portion. I think it'd be nice to have.

[FortCollinsZJ]

The two pieces will bolt together, the crossmember will stay should you need to remove the skiplate, if I were to build the skiplate with the arms already attached, removal of exhaust and or driveshat would be required to install it, PITA.

The plate will sit below the tube, not the inside

I think I may go with the "red idea" and skid all the way forward.

[grandf4]

I think the red idea would be a major plus. I dont know how but I hit my exhaust right at that point and caved it in so the pipe is about half the size it used to be.

Any idea on cost of this skid?

[FortCollinsZJ]

I need to price out the DOM soon and find out a materials cost, then I can more accurately give a price, more importantly I need to get one made as a mockup.

Mockup will be done in HREW, so if I screw up, its' a ton cheaper.

Would pre-cut UHMW for the skid be something you would pay extra for? As an option, not as standard.

[SirFuego]

Would pre-cut UHMW for the skid be something you would pay extra for? As an option, not as standard.

It would be nice, but it would depend on the price. If it's only $10 or $15, I'd consider it, but I'm not sure it'd be worth $50 to me.

It would also mean that I would need to get a piece to cover my clayton's skid, too, since I want as flat of a surface as possible. The problem there is that given the size of sheet of UHMW I would need to get for the Clayton's skid -- I could probably just use the extra to make one for the engine skid.