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View Full Version : Here it goes... My ZJ build



Duncanstives
10-16-2007, 09:08 AM
Despite people VOTING in my other thread (http://www.mallcrawlin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13951) for me to sell me Jeep the people there convinced me to keep it in the comments... I think I was just expiriencing last minute jitters about jumping into a large project without anything close to the expirience I shoud have... But hey... You can only GET expirience by doing stuff right?

Basically I am goign to use this thread to post pics and stuff about the progress of my build and more importantly: Questions! :D

So here is a OLD pic of my ZJ... It do not seem to have a current one hosted... Now its just like it was then only with 31s and no bumpers (but a couple of homemade recovery hooks)
http://66.81.80.139/____45fa136235e89.jpg

Now of course it is not working (tranny is bad) and I have removed both driveshafts and the t-case... The tranny is almost out and soon (next week at the latest depending onhow busy I am) I will begin buying parts for repairs and upgrades. I will post a couple of pics tonight after I (hopefully) get the tranny out.
But first some questions! (wasn't this just the part everyone was waiting for?!:D :smt100 )
I will save the specifics of how to do this and that until I actually run into problems with a specific thing but on more general lines I need to do this on as tight a budget as possible... But I know I need to go on a tool buying spree.... Right now I have basic tools:
Wreches, sockets screwdrivers, torx bits, angle grinder, drill, jackstands, a couple of hi-lifts, a regular tires jack for smaller stuff (like lifting tranny crossmember) and a somewhat flat grassy area covered with a tarp to work on.
I know I will need:
Welder, welding gear (mask etc) and try as a might to avoid the fact I WILL need an actual place to work (the worst drought in as long as they have kept recourds has apparently lulled me into thinking the weather with remain hot/warm and completely dry forever... I can't remember the last time it rained...LOL).
So since all of you guys have been in this position at some point presumably... What else do I need to buy and how can I get the stuff I need dirt cheap? Any rednecks shelters I can build for like no money that will keep water and/or wind out? I live in an apartment complex which is kind of nice and I doubt very much they would appriciate having a taken apart Jeep in the parking lot for the next 6 months or so thus the heap is staying on my moms farm... Where shelter is equally scarces but the neighbors... Wait... What neighbors? :smt044
I might be able to put it in one of her barns but there is no electricity and the best I could do would be a heavy gauge cable with 120.... Can I get a decent welder that uses 120? Something that will do at least a OK job with up to 1/4in?
Sorry about all the questions but I am trying to avoid screwing up my first build before I even get started.
Also: I know questions about tools and stuff should go in a different forum but this thread is PRIMARLY for my build... I just wanted to see if I could get some adivce on that stuff to get me started.

Oh yeah heres a very general idea of where I am heading... The build could get much more or less complex as I go:
Dana 60s front and rear
Unibody reenforcement
Claytons long arms or custom fabbed stuff (CHEAP=WIN!)
Lockers on both axles
39in tires
Roll cage
all sorts of customs skids and rocker panel protection (read: Removal since they are smashed into pretty much non-existence).
Quick removable doors and tube doors (except the back doors... I think those will be permenantly closed do to cage supports and stuff)

Right now it is a 97 ZJ with 175k and a 4.0 (I like the 4.0 but I might add NOS one day since I only need more power on rare occasions).

So... Sorry about the ginormasly long first post and hopefully I will get pics later. PLEASE HELP! :smt100 :smt100 :smt100 (Why do I have the feeling this will become my favorite smily?! :D )

Duncanstives
10-17-2007, 10:07 AM
No pics last night (forgot camera :mad: ) but I DID manage to get my shop together: I told my mom I would install electricity to both her barns if I could use the one for working on my shit (its empty now except for junk storage)... Then I realized 700+ feet of outdoor heavy gauge wire would cost like.. You know.. MONEY (WTF?!) so I told her I would install a solar panel, inverter and lighting in her barn if she bought it if I could use the other which of course she said ok... So now I just had to get electricity to "my" barn... Fortunately when I went out there to clean it out I found an old 2.5kw gas generator that we had used years ago and fogotten about... I assumed it would need work but decided to put gas in it and try it.... Much to my amazment the damm thing started on the very first pull (it worked when last used but has sat in the barn for like... 3 years or something) though it will need a air filter, carb cleaner and some new oil (maybe a spark plug to). So now I have a decent (though for from ideal) 20 amps of of true sine 120 AC available to me... I cleared the barn down to the bare floor and then quickly built some wood floors over a small part of it with some plywood that was lying around for tools and stuff to sit and fixed the doors (one of which was broken and wouldn't close).
Now I have as good a workspace as I could hope for... The roof is sound (as it was pouring for the first time in like... a year or something while I worked and there was not a single drip) and although it will get cold I can pick up a shitty wood stove for like $50 used and I will be set... There is also room to work on 2 or 3 cars at the same time (6 or 8 if I removed the now unused animal pens.. LOL) and the frame is super strong and could be used (possibly after a few minor mods) to hoist engines, trasmissions and even vehicles. I will stick some compact florescent lighting in (remember I have a power crunch... LOL) and I willbe ready to go. Sweet.

Now for the vehicle stuff: I was convinced to cut the back half (or more) off the frame and build a buggy thing... I am also gonna fab up my one control arm system but I would like some adivce... I have thought of all KINDS of advanced crazy shit with reguard to suspension (mostly in idle daydreaming about building some sort of advanced electric offroad vehicle that I have always wanted to do) but I know very little about how it is ACTAULLY done... Especially not the terminology etc involved.
Anyway... for the ZJ I wanted something simple, durible and lightwieght... This means using as many parts as possible for more than one thing.
Since I have no idea how to discribe what I envision (or even if it is something commonly done already) I will just use a picture (rather than doing ANOTHER thousand words... lol). WARNING: SHITTY MS PAINT BELOW!

http://www.131072.com/control%20arms.jpg

Are those not the saddest looking coilovers EVER? :doh:
Anyway... The drawing is obvoiusly not to scale but the control arms are both the same length... This means that as the distance between the lower end of the arm and the frame changes the axle will not try to rotate but the distance betweent he upper and lower arms at any given point will decrease (although it would still be possible to put a metal piece between them because they will change reletive position and thus the metal piece would go at an increasingly great angle as that distance decreases... I might do this to prevent the arms from bending under shock loads such as hitting a brick wall... :D ).
The one posssible issue is this:
As the suspension travels up and down the wheelbase of the entire vehicle will change. The degree of change will be determined by the length of the arms (which is way they are as long as possible... Coming to a single point... Also so there canbe only one mount that doubles as a uber badass t-case skid). The change would be a minor issue BUT as the wheelbase changes the tires must rotate. Imagine the vehicle is not moving and it is suddenly loaded down... The springs compress decreasing the angle of the control arms causing the front wheels to rotate slightly in one direction and the rear to rotate in another)... Now imagine going over a 10 ft jump (to use an extreme example because knowing me it probably WILL happen): The 4000 pound vehicle will will suddenly (if very briefly) be applied (in the form of torquing) to the axles, driveshaft and all the way back through the drivetrain..... I would hate to have my entire drivetrain randomly (or not) grenade JUST because I felt like driving over a cliff... Erm.. I mean bump kind of fast :D .

Now keeping in mind the moderation provided by the simple inertia of of the heavy tires, wheels and drivtrain AND the dampening provided by springs and shocks AND the fact that this rig will have Dana 60s Do you guys think I will snap axles like twigs with this system?

Thanks.

midwestxj
10-17-2007, 10:53 AM
Just a question here. if you made the control arms the same length the lower arms mounted at the body will have to be hanging down about 8 inches (or more) lower than the upper ones. this is going to decrease the clearance under the center of your jeep by at least that much. Thats one of the reasons a lot of people do different length CA.

BigDaveZJ
10-17-2007, 10:57 AM
Is anyone else concerned about the homemade tow hooks???

Duncanstives
10-17-2007, 11:39 AM
Hmm... Yeah... I would not think it would need to be 8 inches... I was assuming it would be the same width of the mount on the axle. Also unless I am think about the geometry of this thing wrong different length control arms would result in torquing of the axle cause they would each create a different arc as they pivoted on the frame side mounts.... Maybe I need to go back and study more trig or maybe I am just temporarily confused or maybe the effect is not significant when you have long control arms reletive to the amount of suspension travel (I mean if your suspension travels even 15 degrees of an imaginary circle with a radius that is the length of the control arm I guess such an effect would probably not be noticable because it would be absorbed by mechanical "play").

Also: Dave... Why would you be concerned about homemade tow hooks? They work great! One had a corner of a rock jabbed into at like 10mph and it got only ever so slightly dented and still works fine... They are not like homemade as in I forged the metal myself or anything... The kind of cobbled together from parts from granger, tsc and lowes.

Firestarter
10-17-2007, 02:11 PM
If you cheap out on recovery gear of all things i cannot WAIT to see the rigged up suspension

midwestxj
10-17-2007, 02:15 PM
[quote=Duncanstives;164390]Hmm... Yeah... I would not think it would need to be 8 inches... I was assuming it would be the same width of the mount on the axle. Also unless I am think about the geometry of this thing wrong different length control arms would result in torquing of the axle cause they would each create a different arc as they pivoted on the frame side mounts.... quote]

Well, the thing is there is anti squat that you need to deal with. Sometimes you have to build the upper mount taller than the axle tube to acheive the correct geometry. Sounds like you should do A LOT of research before buying any parts for this build.

Duncanstives
10-17-2007, 02:51 PM
Firestarter: I did not "cheap out" on it... I am sure it cost more than a ZJ recovery hook kit... I just wanted to reenforce the thin crappy sheet metal bumper to prevent damage during recovery and to make it more "hi-liftable"... I put some c-stock and stuff on there... It actually works great though I have not got around to painting it yet.

midwestxj: Thats why I am here... Though I am not understanding how the having the same length upper and lower mounts the same height will cause problems. Also keep in mind this is my first build... If I do something wrong the first try and have to make changes I am out a little time and a little money but it will be worth it for the learning expirience. I am not expecting perfection on the first try for everything... Especially suspension which is mechanically the most complex part of the vehicle because it is essentially energy storage device which can cause all sort of problems. Still I am gonna jump in and start building and if I can screw it up then I can fix it.

Of course given my limited budget I will probably spend much more time here asking questions or with a drawing pad figuring stuff out than I will building which will help me out in some ways...

BTW what is "anti squat"?

corrupt143
10-17-2007, 03:09 PM
DUDE! Slow down. You cant begin to understand the complexity of the suspension if you dont even know what anti-squat is ( or anti-dive). Atleast go buy yourself a suspension book and READ. Most are for track cars but the info is sound and can be transfered over.

You need to step away and learn first. Granted you learn through experience, but you need to have a basic understanding of what you are doing and this isnt suspension 101 here (MC). It would take WAY too much time to explain everything to you.

corrupt143
10-17-2007, 03:18 PM
Heres some stuff to read.

http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/techarticles/suspension/131_0306_four_link_suspension_part_1/

And heres a suspension calculator.

http://mysite.verizon.net/triaged/4linkcalcv15html/index.html

Maybe once you understand everything there, you could learn some more and then contemplate building your own suspension.

Duncanstives
10-17-2007, 03:19 PM
Thanks

corrupt143
10-17-2007, 03:30 PM
Apology accepted.

corrupt143
10-17-2007, 03:42 PM
Now, books arent "obsolete", theyre just dated. To learn what has been tried and improved upon gives you more knowledge. If you only learn the latest and greatest version, how do you try to improve something without accidentally going backwards in design.

Duncanstives
10-17-2007, 06:16 PM
Hehe... That IS true but how did you see my edited post?

Also: yeah it just pisses me off when people come into a thread (not just my threads... Any threads) and put down and idea and behave in a negetive fashion without actually contributing anything... Which seems to happen a lot around here (probably because you guy are the GC authority and see the same shit over and over and don't feel like guilding every random n00b through everythign but still). But since you were actually like.. Posting links and stuff its all good.

Anyway I broke out the trig book (actually trig software I used to use when I was learning trig... LMAO) and made a handy little model out of cardboard for verification: The making the upper arm mounts different height then the axle tubes (or at a right angle to the axle mount) and making the arms different lengths WILL result in axle torquing with suspension flex... But it does not seem like it will be significant unless I do something crazy with arm length and/or axle mount to frame mount ratio.. Still I like the idea of making both items the same height for some reason (it has a nice logic to it to know that my suspension coul rotate nearly 180 degrees around the mounting point without rotating the axle at all for some reason... Even though this would be neighter useful nor even possible for other reasons). I am still not sure how different height frame side mounts would help with anti-squat/anti-dive (besides I have a puny 4.0... I won't be doing much in the way of "hard acceleration... LMAO)... It seems that would be set more in the spring rate and shocks. Then again but have not read the links corrupt posted cause I was running out the door of work when he posted them and now I just got home... But I am going off to read them now so maybe enlightenment will occure soon.

Duncanstives
10-19-2007, 07:50 AM
UPDATE: Abso-freaking-lutely nothing... I guess shit always goes slower than I want. Yestersay in between them wanting me to work overtime at work, going to stores to check on prices of stuff, helping a buddy get some window motors for his POS saturn, moving the ZJ over to the shop (after bolting the tanny skid back up so it couldbe moved) and fixing the damm generator (just a clogged fuel line... Hardly suprising after like 3 years of sitting) I had no time to actually work on it or even take pictures of it. I used the last of the remaining gas and it ran out (leaving me without light or power tools) JUST after I finished organizing my tools and was getting ready to get started.
I did (suprise, suprise) ran into a few questions:
1. A dude at the junkyard told me a 700r4 tanny was "crap the day it came out" when I asked if he had one... Everything I have been told was that is makes a great swap... This WAS the same guy who's buddy has a xj with 35in boggers and stock axles so I donno about taking advice from him... So anyone here have expririence witht he 700r4? Good bad indifferent?

2. Another guy has a set of dana 60s... What I heard about them lead me to believe they are in good shape with a decently high ratio but do not have lockers. They worth $1500? (I do not know anythign else since I heard about them second hand... I am gonna go see them today if I can)

3. I went to check on prices of steel tubing at the "metal supermarket" we have here... I was thinking about using 2in .125 wall mandril drawn steel tube... Which they had for $7 something a foot... For the 130-150 feet I think I will need this comes out to about what I was estimating it would cost... BUT then the guy mentioned they had another type that was basically a flat sheet that had been rolled over and welded along the seem... Now obviously this would not be as strong but I would think my weakest points would still be my welds... He said this stuff was generally about 30% cheaper... Should I stick with the seemless "high end" stuff?

DJJordache
10-19-2007, 08:11 AM
1. 700R4 has a bad rep from people not taking great care of it. With the older ones you would be lucky to find one with 75K that was not junk..... BUT for example our old suburban has a 700R4. We maintained it and have an aux trans filter installed and it had over 250K before it developed a slight slip under WOT in the 1-2 shift.

Duncanstives
10-19-2007, 08:43 AM
Some 4-wheeler mag I have here says the first FEW years had some problems so maybe he was right... It WAS crap "the day it came out" but not to much after that... Still... I wanna get the 700r4 and not the one that came after that (4l-whatever it was) I like that its more modern but I don't wanna pay for computer crap to make it work.. LOL.

Anyone have a better idea for a swap (I would just use stock for now but its no good)? I kind of like the idea of the r4 cause I know exactly what adapters and stuff I need already but if theres something better out there (that isn't hella exspensive)...

DJJordache
10-19-2007, 09:00 AM
yes there are better options than the 42re but have you thought about the AW4 (came in 93-93.3 ZJ's) and all auto XJ's is a great transmission and can take a decent amount of power too, would probably be easier than a 700r4 too

Duncanstives
10-19-2007, 09:23 AM
Apparently it is bolt on compatible with my I6 and dirt cheap to adapt to a dana 300 t-case ($120 for an adapter plate from novak conversions) but novaks site has this to say about it:


The AW4 is a light to medium-duty transmission. Ours, our callers' and customers' experiences with the AW4 are less than stellar. They have a tendency to generate excessive amounts of heat, and are known for unnecessarily consuming more engine power than some other automatics. The shift points in the AW4 feel odd, and the spotty engagment of the lockup torque converter is idiosyncratic

Some other articles mention using switches to override the PCM gear selection and torque converter state... This does interest me a bit...

Thoughts?

DJJordache
10-19-2007, 10:12 AM
http://www.awshifting.com/

Congratulations to Mike Shaffer of Shaffer's Offroad (http://www.shaffersoffroad.com/), Lance Clifford of Pirate4x4.com (http://www.pirate4x4.com/), and the rest of team 1701 who won the 1700 class of the 2006 Baja 1000 while using an AWshifting controller! I'd say the controller works pretty good if it can stand up tothe abuse of Baja racing

The aw4 can take power, for a frame of reference my brother has a XJ with the aw4 with a VERY tweaked 4.7L stroker and the AW4 handles it just fine, but the power blew up the D35 which in turn blew up his 242TC since he was in 4wdfulltime at the time...

Duncanstives
10-19-2007, 10:21 AM
Hmm.. You know what? I think I will stick a AW4 in there... Its hella easier AND it saves me close to $500 in adapters. If it breaks I will be out 2 or 3 hundred (assumed junkyard cost for a AW4) but if it WORKS I save a ton, made my buggy easier to to build, easier to work on and at least a little lighter. Also it will be SUPER easy to find: XJ are EVERYWHERE.... LOL

Thanks for the tip.

zj95
10-19-2007, 09:24 PM
shittiest build thread EVER......

reminds me of rockhardbj's "toilet obess" build thread or whatever it was

Duncanstives
10-19-2007, 10:03 PM
Aww... Don't be mean... It will get better!
>>>
<<<
>>>
Maybe?

Duncanstives
10-20-2007, 01:26 AM
Anyway: No real progress today... Did work on the tranny a tiny bit but it turns out getting it out without "real" tools is a bitch.

I am leaving to go whitewater rafting this weeking and thus had little time today and no time tomorrow or the next day...

The funny thing is my tranny fluid is all thick, black and soupy even though it put a brand new gallon not 20 miles ago (cause it was leaking like a bitch)... It also smelled so nasty I was starting to feel sick That... Probably combined with minor smoke inhalation... My buddy was cutting the fenders on his bronco with my angle grinder (why he was not using the sawzall I could not say) and started a bunch of grass and sticks that was wedged under the fenders on fire... LOL. He had some decent sized flames up in the wheel wells...

Firestarter
10-20-2007, 12:24 PM
shittiest build thread EVER......

reminds me of rockhardbj's "toilet obess" build thread or whatever it was

x2 :eek:

Duncanstives
10-22-2007, 10:45 AM
Hey guys:
Quick question: Making some quick sketches to try to determine where I want everything and the dimensions I want... I would like my wheelbase to be 108 inches and since I like a wide stance and because 14 bolts come in 67in width fairly often I was going to use a wheel with little backspacing but this would make my rig nearly 8 feet wide...
As far as I know that only laws I might get in trouble with (for my occasional street use of this thing) are if I went over 8ft 8in but 8ft should be ok... And while I will have trouble with tighter trails I will also avoid everyone elses ruts... What do you guys think? To wide?

AgitatedPancake
10-22-2007, 03:51 PM
Retarded.

Duncanstives
10-22-2007, 04:19 PM
Ooook then... May I ask why?

I mean I think 8 feet is a little wide but what else can I do? Even if I get tires with a ton of backspacing the the 14 bolt is still wide as hell.

Duncanstives
10-22-2007, 04:49 PM
Meh... 8 feet looked retarded... I guess I will try to find one of the 62 inch 14 bolts and get wheels of a normal amount of backspacing.

zj95
10-22-2007, 08:58 PM
ok guise.... i got an ideir....


how aboot u go to this awesomerous site called www.jeepsunlimited.com (http://www.jeepsunlimited.com) and learn the basics of vehicles, let alone jeeps and offroad suspensions, then start reading (searching) here (but not posting) about the basics of wheelin and suspensions, and go wheel ure junk (maybe do a F-R swap), learn how to drive, get some experience, and in a year or so start thinkin aboot some mods.

but till then please o please stop posting in every dam thread with stupid ass remarks offering experience u do not have just to get ure post count up.

thank u and have a nice day....

Duncanstives
10-22-2007, 09:04 PM
Just one question: Why the FUCK would I care about my post count?!

Hell I do not even no how to SEE how many posts I have let alone why I would CARE.

zj95
10-22-2007, 09:07 PM
how do YOU not SEE ure POST COUNT? do u EVEN LOOK at the forum u POST on??

Duncanstives
10-22-2007, 09:11 PM
This may be the half bottle of vodka talking but for some reason I guess I just never cared enough to notice...

Anyway I see it now... Right next to "rep power" and "joined date" aka "other shit I don't care about"

RiPPiNiTuP7
10-22-2007, 09:45 PM
how do YOU not SEE ure POST COUNT? do u EVEN LOOK at the forum u POST on??

he's from kentucky, so be easy on him, lol.

Duncanstives
10-22-2007, 09:55 PM
Erm... x10?

Actually... I am not FROM here I just moved here for some unkown reason... LOL