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Duncanstives
10-15-2007, 11:54 AM
I just typed a huge long thread and since for some incredibly stupid reason my PC will not allow to to copy from the text boxes on this site I justhit submit WITHOUT saving it to the clipboard... Of course the incredibly shitty wireless here at work decided to randomly die at that point and it was all lost.

So basically (this version will be much briefer since I am likely to lose it AGAIN :mad: :mad: :mad: ) my ZJ is broken... It is a 4.0 with 175K and needs a tranny along with some other more minor stuff (broke it wheeling) it is basically stock except for a set of 31s and some minor stuff like homemade tow hooks. While it is being fixed I thought I would add all the stuff I have been wanting... I am not going to get into it all because tpying all of it again would make me chuck my PC and go postal but suffice to say it would be hugely lifted and running 38-40in tires with all the trappings (including unibody mods) required to make it work properly (I hate redneck crap... Sadly I live in KY :D so I am SOL). So since I have the ZJ taken apart and it is time to start spending money I figure I should make a final deisions:

Buy something else (Non unibody with stock axles that DON'T suck balls)
Keep and go as planned.

Keep in mind I tend to not only drive it like I stole it but also like I am actively engaged ina high speed prosuit with the cops who strongly dispute my possesion of said stolen vehicle (I have wrecked like 3 cars in two years). Please also leave the preaching to the shrink (who said driving fast was an acceptable behavor as long as I thought the bad was worth the good thank you very much).

So... Whats to do? If I DO buy something else what should it be (I wanna buy something already built at least to some degree)?

Skyline
10-15-2007, 12:22 PM
Junk it of part it out. There is no sense in dumping a crapload of money into a 6cyl Grand. Especially one with 175k on it. If you can get more for it than the cost of fixing what's broken, (which I doubt, but you might if you can fix it cheap), then fix it and then sell it.

If you're going to do some serious wheeling in a ZJ, get a V8 and build that. If you really want to buy something that's already built, get a JK Rubicon.

Duncanstives
10-15-2007, 12:51 PM
JK Rubicon=to much buck and not enough bang. Wranglers hold value way to well.Maybe a Wagoneer?

alteredxj
10-15-2007, 02:15 PM
full size waggi

corrupt143
10-15-2007, 02:26 PM
Sell it and go pick up Codys' rig. Built and a great price. The parts are easily worth the cash, even after figuring in driving it back.

http://www.mallcrawlin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13948

Duncanstives
10-15-2007, 02:39 PM
Hmm... 4.0... 8.8 locked... with good 35s for $4400? Not bad... Needs Dana 30HP and front locker... Probably a SYE kit eventually and also some skids. Still its a decent deal... You guys think driving it like crazy with 35s will bust the unibody?

cooperzj
10-15-2007, 10:07 PM
What do you mean "bust the unibody"?

If this is for street then you will probably bust your head open on a roll over if your driving fast...sorry to preach. Put in a roll cage.

The unibody will be fine- its your steering that will take the beating- unless it's upgraded.

This is not a road rig. I would do just as Cody does and mostly drive it on trails.

Duncanstives
10-15-2007, 11:42 PM
Jeep=NOT FOR STREET USE.... Well Not for anything other than getting to trails (slowly) and maybe the occasional trip to the corner store (and/or impressing chicks.. LOL)

What I mean is that I am told rough driving offroad with large tires can cause damage to the unibody making the whole thing essentially useless. This is why (I am told) people are normally adivsed AGAINST puting Dana 60s or rockwell 2 1/2 tons and tires larger than 35-36in on unibody rigs. Is this incorrect?

1fox2go
10-16-2007, 06:32 AM
Ive always heard and read that the unibody can handle 35s. So I would assume with the proper reinforcements you could run 38s. Just my guess. Someone correct me if I am wrong

Matt
10-16-2007, 06:50 AM
What did your shrink say?

Duncanstives
10-16-2007, 07:14 AM
I stopped going... The mid early life crisis was totally over. Or becaus my shrink mom who promised to pay if I would just go is now reassured that I am only mildly fucked up in the head.

Anyway I guess I should look up unibody mods and see what can be done and how cheap... I guess my whole issue boils down to: Its seems like I can make/buy a nice, functional, offroad rig for cheaper if I use a different vehicle... Anyone care to dispute that assesment?

paulkeith
10-16-2007, 10:15 AM
i say, sleeve the unibody with some thick steel, build a longarm suspension, swap in a hp30 and 8.8, lift it ~4", cut all the sheetmetal you want, fit the biggest tires you can, and beat it up.

or, buy cody's and get the end product and take all the fun out of it. to me, building it is 95% of the fun.

edit: just read your response in my build thread. Forget doing FEA on the unibody. I mean, if that tickles your pickle, knock yourself out, but that's getting too technical...and that's coming from an Aero guy.

do you have a DD that isn't the ZJ?

Duncanstives
10-16-2007, 11:16 AM
Nope... No other DD but I live in the city and carpool to work so having my car out of comission is no big deal... Nor is having one that is not much good on road... So long as it can get to the trails. I will probably buy a beater tow rig and/or DD soon (I just wrecked my last one.. Thats seems to happen to me a lot).

Why do you say it is getting to technical? I actually think it would be a lot of work and not really fun but I thought it might help by keeping my weight lower by letting me slim down parts that were much less likely to fail than the weakest point... Though some guy told me it would be hard to get enough data to do a simulation that would have any practical value (the little bit of stress analysis we did in the course I took was limited to single parts and only applying force in a couple directions at a time.. Also there was no expirmentation to see how close real world would have been to what we perdicted so my expirience is limited).

Yeah... I think if I am gonna stay with unibody rigs I would like to build my own... But I am gonna go with D-60s instead of ford 8.8 and hp30 (that was my original plan)... That way I will never have to upgrade again... Though I think to fit massive tires I will need more lift than the claytons kit provides (7in) even WITH massive trimming so maybe I will buy like...Coilover springs that are even longer and just use the clayton control arms and brackets and stuff...

paulkeith
10-16-2007, 12:30 PM
too technical? they do FEA while designing production automobiles and airplanes. I think its a little bit beyond feasible or necessary in the case of lifting a 14 year old unibody design. With the unibody, you'd have to model it as hundreds of nodes to get any kind of decent results, provided you even know what forces to load it under. All for what, to save 50 lbs? Get off the computer, and go weld.

with fullwidth axles and major sheetmetal removal, i dont think you'd even need 7" of lift. Even 7" is already too tall, imo. You want more droop than compression anyway. Coilovers are fine, but the trick is keeping it low.

The 4.0/42re/np242 is a decent enough combo to get started with, then I'd recommend building a longarm suspension (or buying) that is based off of sleeves over the unibody rails, building a cage out of 1.75 DOM based off of that, including an engine cage so you have a place to mount your front c/os, get some ~40s, dana 60s, and decent gearing, and go knock yourself out.

In reality, i'd recommend basically back-halfing the unibody anyway, and building it all up from tube, if you can handle that. even with a lot of tube and frame sleeving and this and that, you're still going to run into fractures and cracking issues with the unibody if you REALLY beat on it. you end up doing more work in the long run trying to brace and bandaid the unibody into something that will hold up.

I tried this whole build a wheeler out of the unibody thing, and decided it would just be easier and simpler if i started with a solid plain jane steel box frame and went from there, so i scrapped the body i had. In retrospect, i'm glad i did it from the strength standpoint, but I also really like the ZJ lines, and kinda wish i still had some of the shape left. oh well.

all of that being said though, i still think the unibody plus sleeved rails and a little bit of beefing here and there is fine for a large percentage of wheelers out there, myself included. i wish i had kept at least teh firewall/floor/engine compartment of my ZJ and built from there.




Paul

Duncanstives
10-16-2007, 02:04 PM
But carefully modeling the dimesions and parts of the ZJ unibody into an assembly file, leaving the workstation the crunch numbers all night and then printing out giant sized false color images of my frame on the CAD printer would be SOOOO coool :smt040

Of course from an engineering standpoint it SHOULD be all close to the same color (indicating all areas are about the same at the desired margine of safety rather than some areas being to heavy and others being to light).
Oh well... I guess I will induge my nerdy side more if I ever do the all electric, 4 wheel drive hub motor, offroad "buggy" thing with nanopolymere lithium ion batteries I have been wishing I could afford to build... LOL

I actually LOVE the idea of making the the half frame, half tube buggy thing.... That would be sweet... I think I will except I need a way to mount coilovers on the front (still unibody) section if I do that... Oh well... I am sure I can figure it out. Also I would need a tube bender... They are exspensive arn't they :confused: :(

paulkeith
10-17-2007, 03:19 PM
you're going to need to tube up the front too, for coilover mounts and just bracing in general. you should probably search a lot and read even more.

4.5" grinder, a good drill, welder, chop saw, and tube bender will get you started. you may be able to find someone in your town that can do the bends for you around $5-10 a bend. This just requires a lot of accurate prep work and measurement on your part.

Duncanstives
10-18-2007, 08:14 AM
Yep... I plan on having tubing up front as well... Since I am getting rid of the cab that should not be a problem... I think I WILL do some solidworks modeling on this... Not actual stress analysis but just to help me model the suspension by getting a rough idea of the center of gravity and weight and all that... And to help me get an idea of the dimensions and stuff that will give me the look I am going for... I could start that immediatly... Maybe I will come into work on Sunday and work on it.

THanks for the tips on tools as well: Ive got the grinder and drill (and sawzall to get the old body off) so I will just need to get a welder, chop saw and tube bender. Any idea what model of tube bender I should got... or at least advice on what specs to look for and stuff?

Thanks

Chargoldgrand
11-22-2007, 04:01 PM
I had the dilemna of going bigger with my ZJ or buying a new rig too, a little background on rig:

96 ZJ limited 5.2, 231 w/sye, tom woods shafts, Aussied 44A, 33x10.5 BFG muds, rock sliders and skids basically a very mild DD build. I liked it but wanted to go bigger. Decided to sell it and bought:

87 GMC Jimmy K5 350/465/208/10 bolts. I am collecting parts for it right now (no working on it just yet, I shattered my wrist ATVing, DOH! (almost healed now)) parts collection so far: crate 350 (original blewup), 203/205 triple stick doubler, D60 front with alloy shafts/ARB/crossover/PSC pump box and hydro assist, 14BFF rear with Detroit and discs, 4" lift, 37" Cooper muds (going with 37's for now probably 42's later).

At any rate I decided to build up a K5 for a couple reasons (most of the reasons would apply to a Waggy or FS Cherokee too):
1. Body on frame construction=easier to beef
2. Simpler electrical system (manual everything)=less to go wrong
3. Tons of parts interchangablility=1 tons are almost a direct swap
4. Removable top (K5 reason)
5. Cheaper to buy and build

Just figured I'd chime in since I had the same decision myself. Good luck with everything!:D