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Redlaxin18
09-06-2007, 08:09 PM
I wanted to convert the flip down ash tray in my wj into a switch panel for my rack lights and a few other accessories but... i'm not exactly a master of wiring. I built the panel and wanted to have leds mounted above the switches as opposed to using led switches. I was just hoping that somebody could tell me what i need to do/how i need to wire the switches to the leds so the leds turn on when the switches are on. I've already been told i'll need resistors so i went ahead and calculated which ones i need using a formula someone gave me. Also wondering how to wire this into the relays for my daylighters.

What i've got so far
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p40/redlaxin18/switch%20panel/DSCN1959.jpg
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p40/redlaxin18/switch%20panel/DSCN1957.jpg
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p40/redlaxin18/switch%20panel/DSCN1960.jpg
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p40/redlaxin18/switch%20panel/DSCN1961.jpg

ZJ TINS
09-07-2007, 09:25 AM
You need to control the leds to about 15 mAmp of current by adding a resisitor to each led, around 826 ohms should be right.Hook the swithc top to battery (or power and bottom) to load. Between the bottom of the switch and the load tie in you LED (the resistor is in series withteh LED).
Hope this ASCI gram works.
Ignore the dots the spaces are stripped.

12V
| +
Switch
| -
|_________
| .............| +
| ............LED
| .............| -
| ...........Resistor
| .............|
Load .......GND
|
|
GND

gcjeeping
09-07-2007, 09:48 AM
If you use a 12volt led you shouldnt need a resistor. He is how I wire mine up. I used 12volt leds and no resistors.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o164/gcjeeping/SWITCHLAYOUT.jpg

OverkillZJ
09-07-2007, 10:03 AM
What's the need for the resistor using 12v LED's? It'll only pull the load required, anyway.

Cody
09-07-2007, 11:25 AM
In reference to that drawing, I usually don't like wiring switches hot. I usually have them switch ground--keeps them cooler and is generally safer. I had a switch meltdown once and almost started my rig on fire.

OverkillZJ
09-07-2007, 11:28 AM
Cody - some lights you'll have to switch hot, as their only ground isn't through the lead wire, but the mount itself. If you switch ground and give them constant hot, they'll always be on if they're grounding through the mounting bolts. Depends on the light

zj-monster
09-07-2007, 12:25 PM
You need LED's to let you know that your rack lights are on? :smt017










:booya:

ZJ TINS
09-07-2007, 12:35 PM
gcjeeping also has a good plan. However you need to look at your leds, if they are 12v your gtg, if not need resisitor or new leds. The breaker is only needed if your load approach say 80% your switch rating.
However you do need a fuse.
12V
|
Fuse
|
| +
Switch
| -
|_________
| .............| +
| ............LED
| .............| -
| ...........Resistor
| .............|
Load .......GND
|
|
GND

gcjeeping
09-07-2007, 03:09 PM
In reference to that drawing, I usually don't like wiring switches hot. I usually have them switch ground--keeps them cooler and is generally safer. I had a switch meltdown once and almost started my rig on fire.

To be correct, all switches must have a hot lead or they will not work. If you fuse it and use a relay you should never have a situation to overheat a switch since the only draw is the led and the relay. You must have had a bigger problem to have a switch melt and torch your truck.

Dave

OverkillZJ
09-07-2007, 03:34 PM
To be correct, all switches must have a hot lead or they will not work. If you fuse it and use a relay you should never have a situation to overheat a switch since the only draw is the led and the relay. You must have had a bigger problem to have a switch melt and torch your truck.

Dave

Sorry, but that's completely incorrect. A switch must only have a hot lead in one of two situations:

1) the device being powered is already self grounded, hence always has ground and must therefore be hot switched

or

2) the switch has a built in indicator light, or you wish to wire one directly to the switch without the use of a relay, regardless of a relay being required for the device being powered.

corrupt143
09-07-2007, 03:46 PM
Heres more relay and wiring info than you'll ever need.

http://www.the12volt.com/relays/relays.asp

Jeepin' Wolf
09-07-2007, 03:47 PM
^ Yeah, if your switches are melting you've got different issues. As a general rule a switch must not carry the main load (sans really small draw devices and signaling) and whether the switch post itself is hot when off or not is really a wiring design issue. Often times like Matt said you can ground things off at the chassis thus saving yourself a lot of wire. However, sometimes there could be a case for switching ground rather than positive in situations where switch leads are (somewhat) exposed and could be inadvertently shorted by occupant's prying hands or (other) elements. Saves a fuse or two.

gcjeeping
09-07-2007, 05:24 PM
Sorry, but that's completely incorrect. A switch must only have a hot lead in one of two situations:

1) the device being powered is already self grounded, hence always has ground and must therefore be hot switched

or

2) the switch has a built in indicator light, or you wish to wire one directly to the switch without the use of a relay, regardless of a relay being required for the device being powered.


I believe your statement is incorrect. If Power (hot from any source either primary or secondary which carries voltage and current runs though a switch, then it has a hot lead). A switch obviously will not work without power running through (hot lead). Either before or after the accessory.

hot wire (http://www.toolingu.com/definition-550115-24751-hot-wire.html) A wire that has electricity flowing through it. In a typical wiring configuration, the hot wire is the black wire.
http://www.toolingu.com/definition-550115-24751-hot-wire.html

Dave

cLAYH
09-07-2007, 05:26 PM
Cody - some lights you'll have to switch hot, as their only ground isn't through the lead wire, but the mount itself. If you switch ground and give them constant hot, they'll always be on if they're grounding through the mounting bolts. Depends on the light


You should run your power thru a relay anyway. Then either use the switch to control the grnd to the relay or control the power to the relay to close the contacts. The relay then controls the power to the lights. I like to power the switch with an ign source, then when the key goes off the lights go off and the load required to close the relay contacts is very low so it doesn't overload the circuit you've tapped into. However if you don't care about the lights going off with the key then its much easier to control the ground to the relay with the switch.

OverkillZJ
09-07-2007, 06:23 PM
I believe your statement is incorrect. If Power (hot from any source either primary or secondary which carries voltage and current runs though a switch, then it has a hot lead). A switch obviously will not work without power running through (hot lead). Either before or after the accessory.

hot wire (http://www.toolingu.com/definition-550115-24751-hot-wire.html) A wire that has electricity flowing through it. In a typical wiring configuration, the hot wire is the black wire.
http://www.toolingu.com/definition-550115-24751-hot-wire.html

Dave

Dave, in common terminology here we're calling "hot" positive / +

By your logic, the entire frame is hot.

OverkillZJ
09-07-2007, 06:24 PM
You should run your power thru a relay anyway. Then either use the switch to control the grnd to the relay or control the power to the relay to close the contacts. The relay then controls the power to the lights. I like to power the switch with an ign source, then when the key goes off the lights go off and the load required to close the relay contacts is very low so it doesn't overload the circuit you've tapped into. However if you don't care about the lights going off with the key then its much easier to control the ground to the relay with the switch.

I never said you should/shouldn't use a relay, I wasn't aware that was part of the discussion. Depending on what's being powered you should use a relay. I'm confused as to why you just told me somethign I knew in 1st grade?

Cody
09-07-2007, 06:27 PM
GCjeeping...there is more than one way to wire a relay. See below. (and if you're not thinking of using a relay to wire lights/compressors/etc then you probably shouldn't be offering up advice). ClayH is on my page....


You should run your power thru a relay anyway. Then either use the switch to control the grnd to the relay........

You use ground to switch the relay. You can run low voltage 12v through the switch also to switch the relay, but I still prefer to switch ground.

If you're going to run a wire through the dash, firewall, and engine bay to the relay (I have mine by the battery) wouldn't you prefer to have a wire that isn't hot.....ever?

I would, maybe I'm crazy.

I guess you can fuse everything everywhere but why bother? keep your fuses to the short hot/switch wires that run from the relay to the accessory.

Cody
09-07-2007, 06:30 PM
Dave, in common terminology here we're calling "hot" positive / +

By your logic, the entire frame is hot.

I think he's thinking of 110/120 AC where black is hot. I think he's confused on the AC vs. DC thing.

gcjeeping
09-07-2007, 06:49 PM
GCjeeping...there is more than one way to wire a relay. See below. (and if you're not thinking of using a relay to wire lights/compressors/etc then you probably shouldn't be offering up advice). ClayH is on my page....



You use ground to switch the relay. You can run low voltage 12v through the switch also to switch the relay, but I still prefer to switch ground.

If you're going to run a wire through the dash, firewall, and engine bay to the relay (I have mine by the battery) wouldn't you prefer to have a wire that isn't hot.....ever?

I would, maybe I'm crazy.



I guess you can fuse everything everywhere but why bother? keep your fuses to the short hot/switch wires that run from the relay to the accessory.


All my accessories are ran with fuse and relays. I tap into the fuse block under the dash to a fused ignition switched circuit. Run that power through the switch, through the fire wall to a bank of relays I have sitting on the fuse box beside my battery. Then there is only about 8" of wire from the relay to the battery, each with their own fuse. Then the power runs to the accessory. I have this for my OBA and all my lights. With this my circuit only has the foot and a half of wire from my fuse block to the switch and the 8" from the batt to the relay hot when not energized. Switching to ground should produce a hot wire from your batt to the relay and the relay to your switch which is probably about 6 foot and hot at all times through the firewall.... Right? And yes I grasp the concept of ac vs dc...:prayer:



Anyway... REDLAXIN18, did you get any use out of this thread?

gcjeeping
09-07-2007, 07:01 PM
Dave, in common terminology here we're calling "hot" positive / +

By your logic, the entire frame is hot.


I agree "hot" positive / +" and since the frame is not a wire and terminates the circuit due to being connected to ground of the battery I wouldn't consider it hot....unless you disconnect the ground cable to the battery. Then touch the pos batt terminal with one wet hand and hold the ground cable in the other wet hand and tell me if their is any current coming off the ground cable.

Any way off to next subject..... hope Redlaxin18 gets wired up.:)

Cody
09-07-2007, 07:05 PM
you're still not getting it. You can use the switch to connect the circuit on the ground side to trigger the relay. that way, the wire that goes from the relay (which is right by the battery) all the way to the switch is ground. Not hot. With me yet?

and you tap into your fusebox for switch power? :eek: When I used to install it hurt my heart to see things like that.

so you run a hot wire (12v) from your factory fusbox through the firewall to a bank of relays, and then from the relays you run another 12v wire back through the firewall to the switch in the cabin? Really? Do you hate yourself or something? Thats a lot of extra work to try and take a short cut.


And yes I grasp the concept of ac vs dc

so you know the 'black' wire specified as 'hot' in your explanation is almost universally ground in 12 volt wiring (the only exception I know of is trailer brake harnesses that for some reason use white for ground and black for 12v)? I think thats why Matt and I are getting confused a little.

gcjeeping
09-07-2007, 07:32 PM
you're still not getting it. You can use the switch to connect the circuit on the ground side to trigger the relay. that way, the wire that goes from the relay (which is right by the battery) all the way to the switch is ground. Not hot. With me yet?

and you tap into your fusebox for switch power? :eek: When I used to install it hurt my heart to see things like that.

so you run a hot wire (12v) from your factory fusbox through the firewall to a bank of relays, and then from the relays you run another 12v wire back through the firewall to the switch in the cabin? Really? Do you hate yourself or something? Thats a lot of extra work to try and take a short cut. The power is still at the back of your switch whether it is on or not on the ground side of the relay.



so you know the 'black' wire specified as 'hot' in your explanation is almost universally ground in 12 volt wiring (the only exception I know of is trailer brake harnesses that for some reason use white for ground and black for 12v)? I think thats why Matt and I are getting confused a little.


Yeah, I must be the only one looking to do it this way since every auto parts dealer sells the fuse adapters to piggyback on fuses in the fuse block. Including Pioneer and Kenwood. Since your not carrying a 30 AMP load and maybe a 1 at most for the relay you really need to take a look at some new ides that have been around for 20 years or so. Get out and experience the world some.

That was a definition of a hot wire, not specifically for it being a black wire. It can be any color in a vehicle....uhmmmm, go figure.

Isn't the distance I ran my wire the exact same as yours? Its 6ft of wire from my switch to the relay. isn't it about 6ft of wire from your relay to your switch or is your switch in the engine compartment next to the relay?

I have no power running through the firewall when switched off, the grounded switch does, at all times. Where is my logic wrong in the pics....

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o164/gcjeeping/YOURS.jpg
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o164/gcjeeping/MINE.jpg

? Funny, I never burnt any of my rides in..... lets see....25 years of doing it this way or any other way. This is fun.

Next thred

Cody
09-08-2007, 04:08 AM
no, it's fine. You just don't understand any other way to use a relay. I've only installed alarms/remote start/amps/stereos in a 5000+ cars. I've really never touched a 12v system.

Hey, if you don't understand how to use relays in different ways thats fine. I'm not saying switching 12 volt low current is necessarily that bad--honestly 999/1000 times it's just fine. I'm just saying that switching ground is better. You'll never find a human being that works with DC for a living that disagrees with me. Both work, ground is better. fact.

thanks for playing.

Cody

Cody
09-08-2007, 01:19 PM
uh oh, drunk Cody alert. I don't even remember posting that lol

OverkillZJ
09-09-2007, 12:50 AM
LMAO, must've used spell check :finga:

cLAYH
09-09-2007, 12:41 PM
I never said you should/shouldn't use a relay, I wasn't aware that was part of the discussion. Depending on what's being powered you should use a relay. I'm confused as to why you just told me somethign I knew in 1st grade?


You stated that you couldn't run a ground circuit thru a dash mounted switch to run a set of lights if the lights were grounded thru the base. This is true. However my point was:

A)you should always run a relay when powering aux. lights to prevent switch burnout (in the example you gave you were running a set of lights directly off of a dash switch which even a first grader knows is a bad idea)

B)you CAN control an aux light that is grounded thru the base with a dash mounted switch that controls a ground circuit because you are using a relay to control the power to the light and are only using the dash mounted switch to control the ground going to the relay, the realy is fed hot + all of the time and you are controling the relay with a switched ground.

OverkillZJ
09-09-2007, 02:25 PM
My point had NOTHING to do with relays. I'll argue with you later.

Cody
09-09-2007, 05:32 PM
LMAO, must've used spell check :finga:

No, I think most people mess up spelling because they want the effect. They want to show off that they are drunk and think because they are drunk they should have poor spelling

I'm just more of an asshole when I'm drunk--my spelling is still at a 90% level :D


B)you CAN control an aux light that is grounded thru the base with a dash mounted switch that controls a ground circuit because you are using a relay to control the power to the light and are only using the dash mounted switch to control the ground going to the relay, the realy is fed hot + all of the time and you are controling the relay with a switched ground.

thats what I've been saying all along.

cLAYH
09-10-2007, 12:52 AM
My point had NOTHING to do with relays. I'll argue with you later.

I'm not saying you did. I'm arguing your statment saying that you cann't run a base grounded light using a dash mounted switch thats controling a ground circuit as Cody had mentioned. You can if you use a relay. That's all. :smt023

OverkillZJ
09-10-2007, 10:16 AM
I'm not saying you did. I'm arguing your statment saying that you cann't run a base grounded light using a dash mounted switch thats controling a ground circuit as Cody had mentioned. You can if you use a relay. That's all. :smt023

I never stated that either, as I never mentioned relays. With a relay, considering it's lights and the right way, of course you can. :confused:

cLAYH
09-10-2007, 08:32 PM
I never stated that either, as I never mentioned relays. With a relay, considering it's lights and the right way, of course you can. :confused:

Allright then just so we all agree. I think I initally misunderstood you as your example had no relays in it.
:o

OverkillZJ
09-10-2007, 08:41 PM
I think we were arguing different but related things, LOL, but it definitely sounds like we agree... If using any load bigger than tiny, use a relay, and you can wire the trigger switch for that relay (+) or (-).

I'm good at confusing people. It's my job.

ZJ TINS
09-25-2007, 02:09 PM
Just had a hall coversation with our safety/reliability engineers. Fuse or circuit breaker always goes between power source and anything else (load, switch, whatever).

Switches are reliable up to 80% of rated for resistance load (lights) ,< 25% for dynamic load (motors) due to in-rush and switching currents (also depends upon duty cycle).

We switch hot side of load (but after fuse/circuit breaker) since a fault path can occur from load to frame ground and cause a problem of undected loss of function. However this may not be relevant in the offroad commercial world.
Maybe, maybe not worth 2cents

OverkillZJ
09-25-2007, 02:11 PM
Not trying to sound rude - but DUH! :D

seans
09-30-2007, 04:38 PM
The above posts illustrate why I pay a professional when it comes to electrical work! They pay if it burns!!!

niceday2ride
08-07-2008, 04:25 PM
I know this thread is old, but damn...

http://movementarian.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/arguing_on_the_internet.jpg