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Z
12-26-2006, 10:49 AM
Kicking around the idea of buying a flex-fuel WK for the following reasons:

1. Getting tired of the relatively harsh ride from my ZJ (even though its got long arms).
2. Getting tired of chasing front-end noises.
2. Would prefer to give my fuel dollars to American farmers (and in some cases ethanol co-ops) instead of bin Laden, Hamas, Hezbollah and the big oil companies.
3. Would like a highway-able/trail-able Jeep for moderate-difficult (but not extreme) trails.
4. If I can figure out where to store it, I'd probably keep my ZJ for the near-extreme trails.

We've had a couple WKs at GSWs and apparently QuadraDrive 2 does great, even with 34" tires.

Questions:
1. Does anyone have any knowledge/experience with IFS lifts?
1a. When lifted, do they provide a more highway-able experience than solid axles?
1b. Do they go easier on bushings than solid axles (will the front end suspension bushings last longer than a single trip on Golden Spike)?
2. The 4.7L is the only flex-fuel engine that Jeep has right now, is that engine enough to push 34" tires up Vail pass without regearing?
3. Any insite on the strength (or weakness) of the axles (can I run 34" tires forever on those axles, understanding that I won't be using this vehicle for extreme trails)?
4. Why can't I get a WK in Inferno Red? :smt011:

Matt
12-26-2006, 11:01 AM
Tom,

I've had IFS lifted vehicle with 34's (ZR2) in the past and will NEVER go back. Once you lift them over a couple inches they put everything at extreme angles and wear front end components very fast.

I'm not to familiar with the WK though, but I'm bettin it's a lot beefier than the front end of a S-10. I'd say Spring Creek would be the limits of a moderate built IFS.

Oh, and I still have you 2.5 downturn that I need to get to you!!

Skyline
12-26-2006, 03:12 PM
I'm not sure that what you want exists, (that is, a flex fuel vehicle that can be reasonably capable off-road, and still MUCH more comfortable on-road). I think there is a vehicle that is very close to these requirements, but is just not flex-fuel; that is the Toyota 4 Runner.

The 4 Runner is VERY comfortable on road. It is fully framed, and can be made very capable off-road. Comes with things like Torsen electric locking center diff; descent control, and a very good 4WD traction control systems. The rear suspension is basically a long arn design. It is a much more refined vehicle than any Jeep. You should take a test drive. Given Toyota's work with hybrids, a hybrid version is probably more likely than a flex fuel version down the road.

The Dude
12-26-2006, 03:25 PM
I'm not sure that what you want exists, (that is, a flex fuel vehicle that can be reasonably capable off-road, and still MUCH more comfortable on-road). I think there is a vehicle that is very close to these requirements, but is just not flex-fuel; that is the Toyota 4 Runner.

The 4 Runner is VERY comfortable on road. It is fully framed, and can be made very capable off-road. Comes with things like Torsen electric locking center diff; descent control, and a very good 4WD traction control systems. The rear suspension is basically a long arn design. It is a much more refined vehicle than any Jeep. You should take a test drive. Given Toyota's work with hybrids, a hybrid version is probably more likely than a flex fuel version down the road.

they already make the Wk in flexfuel. I would rather run off corn than have a hybrid. But good point about the frame.

BlaineWasHere
12-29-2006, 07:09 PM
My 4.7 pushes 32's on 3.73 gears just fine. I want more gear for more power. With 34's it would need to be downshifted on steep grades. At least OD locked out.

AQHACowboy
12-29-2006, 07:17 PM
You can PM rob92xj, he is a service tech at the jeep dealer ship here in North Carolina. He will be able to answer them better and be able to tell you more in depth details.

Z
12-29-2006, 08:28 PM
My 4.7 pushes 32's on 3.73 gears just fine. I want more gear for more power. With 34's it would need to be downshifted on steep grades. At least OD locked out.

Thanks, that's kinda what I expected. Assuming gears are available (BIG assumption), that raised the price by $1k.

redzj
12-29-2006, 09:01 PM
I have had three lifted IFS trucks they don't typically work out all that well off road, or hold up for that matter but they definately ride and drive better.

BlaineWasHere
12-30-2006, 10:49 AM
Thanks, that's kinda what I expected. Assuming gears are available (BIG assumption), that raised the price by $1k.

I don't even know what the diffs are... check out www.wkjeeps.com and see if you can find out.

BlaineWasHere
12-30-2006, 10:53 AM
Front axles
Differential Type 1: Conventional (C200F)

Availability: Standard on 4 x 4 models with 3.7-liter and 4.7-liter engines; standar

Ring Gear Diameter: 7.9 in. (200mm)

Axle Ratios: 3.07:1 – 3.7-liter engine; 3.73:1 – 4.7-liter engine


Differential Type 2: Electronic Limited Slip Differentials (ELSD) (C200FE)

Availability: Optional on 4 x 4 models with NV245 Transfer Case, optional with 5.7-liter engine (Quadra-Drive II)

Ring Gear Diameter: Same as standard

Axle Ratios: 3.73:1 – 4.7-liter and 5.7-liter engine





Rear axles

Differential Type 1: Conventional (C213R)
Availability: Standard on 3.7-liter engine Standard on 4.7-liter engine

Ring Gear Diameter: 8.3 in. (213mm)

Axle Ratios: 3.07:1 – 3.7-liter V-6 engine; 3.73:1 – 4.7-liter V-8 engine


Differential Type 2: Vari-Lock Progressive

Availability: Optional on 4 x 2 models

Ring Gear Diameter: Same as standard

Axle Ratios: 3.07:1 – 3.7-liter engine; 3.73:1 – 4.7-liter engine and 5.7-liter engine


Differential Type 3: Electronic Limited Slip Differentials (ELSD) (C213RE)

Availability: Standard with 5.7-liter engine, Optional with 4.7-liter engine, Optional on 4 x 4 models with NV245 Transfer Case (Quadra-Drive II)

Ring Gear Diameter: Same as conventional

Axle Ratios: 3.73:1 – 4.7-liter engine and 5.7-liter engine


Differential Type 4: Dana 44 (226RBI)

Availability: Standard with 6.1-liter engine (SRT8 only)

Ring Gear Diameter: 8.9"

Axle Ratio: 3.73:1

ArloGuthroJeep
12-30-2006, 11:28 AM
Saw the AEV WK in action out at GSW and it kicked ass...4" of lift & 33's...did Hells Gate w/o slipping a tire.

PassRunnerZJ
12-30-2006, 06:31 PM
Tom, I'd get in touch with Dave Harrington at AEV as he has been doing a lot with IFS DCX products since they started. I know what I saw of his WK in both the last two GSW's impressed me.

My brother drove a Commander with a group of other Commanders that did Hell's Revenge including the Gate and Escalator and even in the stock form the IFS did well. Of course the rocker panels were a little worse for wear due to the stock hight, but then they were test vehicles.

I think 33's or 34's on a WK with a little lift would make a great new rig and some armor as well.

Another thought from information that I heard from a friend that runs biodesiel in his 01 Dodge 4x4 pickup is that DCX products run the same w/or w/o bio vs. both Ford and Chevy not working and he had a Chevy before that. He figures in the last 30k miles, the average cost per gallon of fuel is $.40 since he makes his own. The first add-on you should do though is a pressure guage on the lift pump side (Matt would attest to that too).

Mtn WJ
01-01-2007, 11:34 AM
Tom

I too saw the AEV WK in action and thought it did very well. The guy with the red WK ran Golden Spike and overall he performed well. I do not know what lift he had but was runnig 33's. I am impressed with Quadra Drive 2. It works much better than quadra drive especially when you factor in the larger tires.

The AEV guy said it will lock up with 35 inch tires too. You should see if AEV is willing to build you one. Or at least shoot them an email for opinions. As for me no 4.0 so no go. OK for reals according to Dave at AEV he feels the new GC and Commander are just getting started with their potential. He also told me he loves the way it drives both on and off the trail. Seeing it walk up hells gate was impressive.

I would be concerned a bit with product develpment from the aftermarket world. Who knows now with the fact that you can get 4 door 5 seater Wrangler.

PassRunnerZJ
01-02-2007, 12:18 AM
It seems that I heard that you can go up to 34" tires on the WK without trimming as well. Having AEV do at least the lift part might not be a bad idea.

wjnick
01-02-2007, 11:52 AM
if you do decide to go with a WK, the diesel comes out this year, thats always an option.

Z
01-02-2007, 03:00 PM
if you do decide to go with a WK, the diesel comes out this year, thats always an option.
Turbo Diesel would certainly be cool. Hmmm, I wonder if I could turn my shed into a bio-diesel still? What little information I could find on the web about the diesel implies that you can't get it with Quadra Drive II, but that's probably just due to incomplete info.


Tom
The AEV guy said it will lock up with 35 inch tires too. You should see if AEV is willing to build you one. Or at least shoot them an email for opinions. As for me no 4.0 so no go.
You really need to get a life!!! :) From what I can tell, the 4.7L engine is very reliable. Yeah, my 4.0L has been just fine, but after 13 years, the vehicle itself is just kinda corroding (figuratively).



OK for reals according to Dave at AEV he feels the new GC and Commander are just getting started with their potential. He also told me he loves the way it drives both on and off the trail.
That's what I'm looking for, that and to get off gasoline as much as practical.




I would be concerned a bit with product develpment from the aftermarket world. Who knows now with the fact that you can get 4 door 5 seater Wrangler.

I had thought of a Wrangler, but I already have a very capable trail rig (my ZJ which I'll keep). A new Wrangler built for the trial is probably going to ride worse than my ZJ and the 3.7L Wrangler engine isn't FlexFuel capable so what's the point?

Regarding product development, aside from axles, traction control (both of which are fine in stock form for what I want to do) and a lift (which is available from SuperLift), what more do you need? I probably would get together with Trango (if he's still fabricating) and work on some real front and rear bumpers.

And this place seems to have some decent skid stuff for the WK: http://www.4xguard.com/

BlaineWasHere
01-03-2007, 06:16 PM
If you are buying a new WK get the 3.0 diesel for sure!

Mtn WJ
01-10-2007, 11:51 PM
So Tom

I saw a sweet Black WJ running 32s with about a 3-4 inch lift in Broomfield today. They do look good lifted.

Z
01-11-2007, 02:22 PM
So Tom

I saw a sweet Black WJ running 32s with about a 3-4 inch lift in Broomfield today. They do look good lifted.

WJ or WK?

Colorado 5.9
01-11-2007, 04:43 PM
I'm sure he ment WK. There are a hand full of guys here in Denver with lifted WK's. Sadly they are still on JU though. I've seen DurangoKid's Black WK on I-25 before. Looks great. He's the one Keith probably saw.

PassRunnerZJ
01-11-2007, 06:19 PM
As far a looking good goes, I saw a Black Commander lifted and on 34" or 35" tires a month or so ago and it looked really nice. Not that Tom wants one of those as they don't have the desiel option (as far as I know now) for bio or flex fuel and then he wouldn't be in the Grand crowd.

Mtn WJ
01-11-2007, 06:41 PM
Yea sorry it was a WK.

I liked the AEV Commander at GSW too. Kind of like it better than the WK. Just a little better.

Z
01-11-2007, 06:53 PM
Commander? Yuck.

I'm still trying to get used to the look of the WK, but it looks tons better than the Commander. I guess an up-sized Cherokee just doesn't have the same visual appeal as a regular Cherokee.

Mtn WJ
01-11-2007, 07:00 PM
I dont like them in stock form but lifted a little with 33s like at GSW they take on an entire new look in my opinion.

I would have to be that Hunter Green color and MT tires. Not sure why but I dug the look of it in the parking lot at the dinner.

Colorado 5.9
01-11-2007, 08:19 PM
Yea I liked it too. I don't think I'd ever buy one unless it was more that just me.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v169/Colorado59/GSW06%20Banquet/Img_8187.jpg

Colorado 5.9
01-22-2007, 04:41 AM
Hummm? http://jeepsunlimited.com/forums/showthread.php?t=792346

PassRunnerZJ
01-22-2007, 11:44 AM
Interesting. For my .02 I think that going with a desiel and hoping that bio-diesel catches on, so that we don't have to distill our own in the back yard, but probably won't for a while so we will all be "Mad Maxing" for the barrels of used fry grease behind the local chicken joints.

I know a guy running bio in his Dodge 2500 and his fuel mileage is either the same or really close to the same and power seems to be the same as well. The exhast smell is closer to baking bread from what he says, but I thought it smelled more like the fuel we used to use with the Cox engine planes. He is able to go about 6k between oil changes as his bio is really clean and has extra lubricating qualities as well. I checked the color of his oil at close to 3k and it was as clean as mine on my ZJ at about 1k. It also is quieter than a regular diesel. There was the same model truck next too his in the Lowe's parking lot for side by side verification.

There are a couple of catches though: In the winter you have to cut it with regular diesel to prevent gelling if you park it overnight outside of a garage or change the way you refine it and leave the methenol in (I think). And you have to plan trips well so you can haul enough fuel to get you to your destination and back. It isn't a big deal to throw 50 gallons in the back of a truck, but a WJ wouldn't be much fun with 30 gallons strapped to the top. That said, you can switch back an forth and using bio for daily driving would be worth it in the long run and buying pump diesel for trips when you had to.

Z
01-22-2007, 02:49 PM
I am getting pretty interested in the 3.0 CRD version of the WK. However the CRD may not be available with Quadra Drive II, which would eliminate that engine from consideration.

BlueSun distributes B20 in the Denver area, I'd probably just resort to that for a while. B20 is 20% bio, 80% diesel. BlueSun's website backs up Todds belief that biodiesel (or at least part bio diesel) is a better lubricant than pure diesel.

Pearce
01-22-2007, 06:15 PM
Wait for the diesel, the FlexFuel stuff sucks. Of course I have no experience with the Jeep version but know of plenty of Nissan Titans that have run it and is not only worse milage but also worse on power and at least on the east coast costs more to buy. And that Titan motor is a great motor. How well the biodiesel will do in the new motors is still up for debate.

Popsicle
01-22-2007, 10:12 PM
2. Would prefer to give my fuel dollars to American farmers (and in some cases ethanol co-ops) instead of bin Laden, Hamas, Hezbollah and the big oil companies.

Sorry dude but ethanol wont be in supply for another 5 - 10 years, and thats IF they do it, technology right now is mad to expensive and it costs more money to make the ethanol than it puts out when it is burned. Just go Hybrid youll be alot happier. With the way the government is set up right now, the lobiests have a but load of power meaning gas is gunna be used until its practically depleted. And the whole "binladen" thing even if america stops buying gas from saudi arabia, China still needs it bad. So they will get all the money they need, IF its true, cuz right now i dont know what to believe from our government.

MORAL OF STORY, get hybrid toyota makes some frigging great cars.

DJJordache
01-22-2007, 10:26 PM
yeah I heard that biodiesel is pretty good but too bad that it is banned in TX (http://www.alternative-energy-news.info/biodiesel-banned-texas/) eco-hippies whining about higher NOx levels with the biodiesel.
(http://www.alternative-energy-news.info/biodiesel-banned-texas/)

Z
01-23-2007, 12:49 AM
2. Would prefer to give my fuel dollars to American farmers (and in some cases ethanol co-ops) instead of bin Laden, Hamas, Hezbollah and the big oil companies.

Sorry dude but ethanol wont be in supply for another 5 - 10 years, and thats IF they do it, technology right now is mad to expensive and it costs more money to make the ethanol than it puts out when it is burned. Just go Hybrid youll be alot happier. With the way the government is set up right now, the lobiests have a but load of power meaning gas is gunna be used until its practically depleted. And the whole "binladen" thing even if america stops buying gas from saudi arabia, China still needs it bad. So they will get all the money they need, IF its true, cuz right now i dont know what to believe from our government.

MORAL OF STORY, get hybrid toyota makes some frigging great cars.

Ethanol production is happening in America, seemingly as a grass-roots movement. Corn is the current crop of choice, but it seems like more of a stop-gap measure until more viable alternatives come on-line.

You are right about China (not to mention India), but giving terrorists money is only part of the equation. If America was (more) self-reliant on fuel, we could tell Hugo Chavez to shove off. Instead, we have to grin and bear it because we need his oil (same with Saudi Arabia, etc, our dependence on oil is limiting [or defining] our actions/reactions)

Hybrid technology is okay for in-town driving (though I think generally overrated), but is useless for highway driving (not much lost energy to store). And its possible that a 3.0L diesel in the WK will give about the same fuel consumption as a hybrid SUV (reports I've found on consumption vary wildly, so I have to reserve judgement until I can get my hands on one).

If I want to continue co-organizing Grand Slam West, its kinda imperative that I replace my current Grand with another Grand, so Toyota is not really an option. Plus, I don't think I'd trust Toyota for another couple years - a few years ago they changed their procurement process to cut costs, I'd want to make sure that change didn't produce an inferior product (for which you pay premium prices).

Z
01-23-2007, 12:51 AM
yeah I heard that biodiesel is pretty good but too bad that it is banned in TX (http://www.alternative-energy-news.info/biodiesel-banned-texas/) eco-hippies whining about higher NOx levels with the biodiesel.
(http://www.alternative-energy-news.info/biodiesel-banned-texas/)
That's the first I've heard of that. Part of the benefit of bio fuels is that it tends to be a zero-sum game environment-wise. The bad stuff generated by burning the fuel is offset by the good stuff generated by the plants while they are growing.

Pearce
01-24-2007, 12:35 PM
That's the first I've heard of that. Part of the benefit of bio fuels is that it tends to be a zero-sum game environment-wise. The bad stuff generated by burning the fuel is offset by the good stuff generated by the plants while they are growing.


It's not banned, yet: http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=47033

They talk only about B20 being banned not B5 or B10. Texas is the second largest producer of the stuff I read somewhere.

ZJ TINS
07-27-2007, 03:44 PM
Just checked, spot price of bulk ethanol (fuel grade) is $1.25/gal,
corn oil $1.75/gal (for biodiesel).

Wholesale gas price is $2.22/gal



I think the economics just shifted from dino to organic.